Gotta wonder......

HEARTLESS wrote:

ZHawke wrote:

HEARTLESS wrote: My crystal ball is missing and I'm not Claire. As in voyant. Looks like you're race bating to me.

Look at it how you may. There is plenty of race-baiting, as you call it, going on in The Courthouse. I never asked for a clairvoyant response. I said (didn't ask) "gotta wonder".

And apparently you still are (wondering). Call the Aurora PD and ask if they would have done anything differently if the only change in circumstances was skin color.

Really? Sort of like when I called the JeffCo Sheriff's Department for a statement on how their Department views the issue of arming school staff? Yep, I'm sure they'll give a very straightforward answer, just as JeffCo did. Uh-huh. Yep. Gonna get right on that there directive. Yesireee. In the meantime, you might want to take a look at what I had to say about the two Aurora Police Officers and how they handled the situation.

HEARTLESS wrote: There isn't a racist behind every badge.

And I never said there was, now did I?

And it's also very interesting to me how you pretty much automatically assume I'm condemning the Aurora Police Officers in this instance when, in point of fact, I'm condemning the young brat/know-it-all/dipstick and very obnoxious youth trying to provoke them while thinking he knows everything there is to know about how to stand up to a cop. During the exchange, one of the cops even pointed that out to this young dipstick. That they didn't take him to the pavement is, again, a testament to their good judgment and restraint in this ridiculous situation.

ZHawke wrote:

HEARTLESS wrote: Did before I responded, refer to the question I asked you.

I meant no disrespect when I asked the question.

The way I look at it, this is a "think about it" story if I ever saw one. I mean that from a perspective of what might have happened if this young man were black and carrying. Or, perhaps if this young man had been a Hispanic youth under the same circumstances.

These policemen exhibited remarkable calm and restraint in dealing with this very recalcitrant "know-it-all". That they ultimately took him into custody for obstruction is a testament to their good judgment, and I give them full credit where credit is due right alongside their rationale for asking for ID in the first place.

Just gotta wonder. That's all.

So you bring up "what might have happened if this young man were black and carrying. Or, perhaps if this young man had been a Hispanic youth under the same circumstances." I didn't bring up race, you did. Then you mention "Really? Sort of like when I called the JeffCo Sheriff's Department for a statement on how their Department views the issue of arming school staff? Yep, I'm sure they'll give a very straightforward answer, just as JeffCo did. Uh-huh. Yep. Gonna get right on that there directive. Yesireee. In the meantime, you might want to take a look at what I had to say about the two Aurora Police Officers and how they handled the situation" At times it is like talking to almost rational ZHawke, then others it is like out in Left field ZHawke and now we have Sybil? Eventually you need to decide who you are and let the rest of us know.

HEARTLESS wrote:

ZHawke wrote:

HEARTLESS wrote: Did before I responded, refer to the question I asked you.

I meant no disrespect when I asked the question.

The way I look at it, this is a "think about it" story if I ever saw one. I mean that from a perspective of what might have happened if this young man were black and carrying. Or, perhaps if this young man had been a Hispanic youth under the same circumstances.

These policemen exhibited remarkable calm and restraint in dealing with this very recalcitrant "know-it-all". That they ultimately took him into custody for obstruction is a testament to their good judgment, and I give them full credit where credit is due right alongside their rationale for asking for ID in the first place.

Just gotta wonder. That's all.

So you bring up "what might have happened if this young man were black and carrying. Or, perhaps if this young man had been a Hispanic youth under the same circumstances." I didn't bring up race, you did. Then you mention "Really? Sort of like when I called the JeffCo Sheriff's Department for a statement on how their Department views the issue of arming school staff? Yep, I'm sure they'll give a very straightforward answer, just as JeffCo did. Uh-huh. Yep. Gonna get right on that there directive. Yesireee. In the meantime, you might want to take a look at what I had to say about the two Aurora Police Officers and how they handled the situation" At times it is like talking to almost rational ZHawke, then others it is like out in Left field ZHawke and now we have Sybil? Eventually you need to decide who you are and let the rest of us know.

Just because I happen to be grateful these two officers didn't "go off" on this young twerp doesn't mean I can't pose some hypothetical scenarios to ponder. That's something I see quite often in this forum from others of a more conservative bent who then demand that I play within the confines of their imaginary postulation. Perhaps if I had put my OP into that kind of format in the first post I made, it would have been more palatable to you?

So, to play that game, this is how a hypothetical scenario for such a situation might go:

There has been an ongoing debate raging in this country over the issue of open carry and whether or not it should be allowed at all. The issue of knowing who might be a good guy with a gun as opposed to a bad guy with a gun out in the open is a part of that debate. Different scenarios could, conceivably present themselves based on this concern. One of those scenarios obviously was as presented in the video embedded in the article. Another might be of a situation in which a young Black person the same age as the young man in the video is seen walking down a very busy public street carrying what appears to be a real shotgun. And, yet another might be of a situation in which a young Hispanic person is seen walking down a very busy public street carrying what appears to be a real shotgun.

Realistically, and taking a good hard look inside ourselves at our own personal biases, how would we be able to determine if any of them is a good guy with a gun or a bad guy with a gun just by looking at them? How would our own belief systems help determine how we view each of these young men in this type of situation?

If you were a cop called to this incident, how would you react to each of the scenarios presented while once again taking a good hard look deep within yourself before answering?

It is my own personal belief we tend to think of gun "control" (and, for the record, gun "control" is an illusion as far as I'm concerned) from a perspective of whites ownership of guns from a more positive and responsible perception in more general terms than we do of other ethnic groups. In other words, we don't believe we need "control" when it comes to a more "white" population, but other ethnic groups? I'm not so sure we apply that same standard to them.

There has been an ongoing debate raging in this country over the issue of open carry and whether or not it should be allowed at all. The issue of knowing who might be a good guy with a gun as opposed to a bad guy with a gun out in the open is a part of that debate. Different scenarios could, conceivably present themselves based on this concern. One of those scenarios obviously was as presented in the video embedded in the article. Another might be of a situation in which a young Black person the same age as the young man in the video is seen walking down a very busy public street carrying what appears to be a real shotgun. And, yet another might be of a situation in which a young Hispanic person is seen walking down a very busy public street carrying what appears to be a real shotgun.


This is why concealed carry has become popular. No one sees it, so no perceived problem. The person in this instance is under age for handgun ownership and a concealed carry permit (21 years old or older). At 18 years old they can legally own a rifle or shotgun, but because of the law, can't carry concealed (shotguns with pistol grips fall under 21 and older law) and thereby may question why they can't carry openly and defend themselves. This is his battle and brings up valid questions. Not having a valid ID or Drivers License challenges another law. It is his battle and you need to ask him, I'll not try to answer a question I don't fully know his reasoning for.
I'll do these separately as they become too run-on otherwise.

But you still did not directly address the questions I asked, all of which were specific to open carry and how you might handle each scenario.

Realistically, and taking a good hard look inside ourselves at our own personal biases, how would we be able to determine if any of them is a good guy with a gun or a bad guy with a gun just by looking at them? How would our own belief systems help determine how we view each of these young men in this type of situation?

I don't see a potential killer behind every gun. A gun is a tool and the demeanor of the individual is all important (why the Aurora officers didn't react differently).

It is my own personal belief we tend to think of gun "control" (and, for the record, gun "control" is an illusion as far as I'm concerned) from a perspective of whites ownership of guns from a more positive and responsible perception in more general terms than we do of other ethnic groups. In other words, we don't believe we need "control" when it comes to a more "white" population, but other ethnic groups? I'm not so sure we apply that same standard to them.


I do not think of gun control in your terms. The NRA has championed gun laws that don't discriminate based on race, but people have to look into it to find that out. Gun control is used by a government that fears its' own people, read corrupt or unjust government.

ZHawke wrote: But you still did not directly address the questions I asked, all of which were specific to open carry and how you might handle each scenario.

Hopefully the following responses answered the questions.