Questions I Can't Get Answers to From People I Disagree With

Replied by homeagain on topic Things The Left Can Never Admit

OF COURSE I have references.....some have already been posted ("headaches")....but here
is the WORST one of all.....CLEAN WATER AT MORE RISK.


www.npr.org/2020/01/23/798809951/trump-a...or-smaller-waterways
26 Jan 2020 08:34 #11

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Replied by Pony Soldier on topic Things The Left Can Never Admit

That move was about giving states more control and a big centralized behemoth federal government less control. It has always been my firm belief that government should be a local as possible.
26 Jan 2020 09:15 #12

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Replied by koobookie on topic Things The Left Can Never Admit

towermonkey wrote: Do you have a reference for any of that? Apparently we have to back up our assertions now as opinions are not valid.


Seriously? Nobody has said your opinions are not valid, only that you need to base them in facts. That is how rational debate works. Why would you want to just debate opinions?

"I think Tom Brady is the worst quarterback in history."
"Oh, yeah, well I think he's the greatest of all time."

Two opinions. Done. However, if you start to back them up with statistics and facts, then there is something to discuss.

It's quite simple - if you make an assertion, be willing and ready to back it up with facts.
26 Jan 2020 09:41 #13

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Replied by ramage on topic Things The Left Can Never Admit

This scenario is preferable:

Opener: Tom Brady is the worst quaterback of all time.

Responder: No response. or "Oh, yeah, well I think he's the greatest of all time."

The obligation is on the part of the responder to refute the statement. By not offering any substantiation, the responder, in effect, show they have no argument.
26 Jan 2020 09:52 #14

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Replied by koobookie on topic Questions I Can't Get Answers to From People I Disagree With

ramage wrote: This scenario is preferable:

Opener: Tom Brady is the worst quaterback of all time.

Responder: No response. or "Oh, yeah, well I think he's the greatest of all time."

The obligation is on the part of the responder to refute the statement. By not offering any substantiation, the responder, in effect, show they have no argument.


Actually, no. The response, if they want a truly rational debate, should be, "Why do you think he is the worst?" Otherwise, it's just an argument of opinions without facts. It is never beholden of the response to provide facts for the initial assertion.

Perhaps this graphic will help:
Last edit: 27 Jan 2020 10:07 by MyMountainTown. Reason: Changed topic title per OP's request
26 Jan 2020 10:23 #15
Attachments:

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Replied by Pony Soldier on topic Questions I Can't Get Answers to From People I Disagree With

Sorry, I come here for conversation, not debate. Setting rule to hold a conversation is just stupid and doesn't promote communication, but hinders it.
Last edit: 27 Jan 2020 10:07 by MyMountainTown. Reason: Changed topic title per OP's request
26 Jan 2020 10:54 #16

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Replied by ScienceChic on topic Questions I Can't Get Answers to From People I Disagree With

No, I never said that opinions are not valid, I said for true debate, which Rick started this thread on that note, you should cite evidence.

Rick wrote: I’d honestly love to debate that one too. That’s why I’m here.


Let me give you an example of why this is important. In the The King's Considerable Ignorance of Combat topic, FredHayak made this statement:

You are acting very partisan HA. Did you condemn President Obama's drone war that was waged without congressional approval of each and every strike?

The first thing I did as soon as I read that was a search for "drone" here on MMT and the wealth of topics and comments came up was invaluable (and also, the conversations back then were a lot more toxic and nasty, and I'm thankful they are much improved - thank you all for helping make that happen). They show that there were liberals here (I didn't see a comment from homeagain at that time, nor from me, fwiw) who both approved and condemned the policy, articles cited that we could go back and read (NY Times and WashPo even), and even conservative members of Congress who approved of the program (and those who didn't). The point being that you can't put people in a box and having the articles helps provide additional information and provides historical perspective if we go back to search years later.
Drones
These are the criminals that caused 4 people to die
Secrecy defines Obama's drone war
Fury at Obama Erupts as Occupy Wall Street Rallies in NYC
Obama has killed more US citizens than foreigners
Breaking old school filibuster

Also, when I did a Google search for Obama and drone strikes, I noticed that right-wing leaning and conspiracy sites kept using the number 2,800 for the number of drone strikes the Obama administration supposedly conducted. However, that's nowhere close to the actual number, and having those citations makes a difference. There were also a number of good journalism and opinion articles that would be great to read and debate, which I'll bring up in the other thread later.

So yes, state your opinion as you wish, but if you want a true debate, you have to consider what the other side presents, the strengths and weaknesses in their arguments, plus your own.

Rick, in your first post you said:

The top people at the FBI abused their power in an attempt to take out Trump.

I disagree because Comey, the FBI Director at the time, is, in my opinion, the person who put the nail in the coffin of Hillary's campaign by announcing shortly before the election date that she was under investigation for her emails (yet again). And he did so because he felt pressure from the threat that agents in the Southern District of NY were going to leak that information because they hated her and preferred Trump win.

Once-Heroic Agents Have Helped Trump’s Effort to Divide and Conquer the FBI

Considering that as a possibility, does that change your position and how? Do you have evidence to rebut my contention that while our law enforcement on the whole is non-partisan and acts with integrity to keep our country safe, there are a few bad actors and they exist in both political flavors.

Rod Rosenstein, who authorized the release of Lisa Page and Peter Strzock's texts, is now under fire for doing so as it was gave Trump ammunition to use against the FBI to hype conspiracy theories that the FBI was "out to get him," and both Page and Strzock were cleared of wrong-doing so all of the negative consequences they've suffered since were unfair and damaging?

ramage wrote: TM,
You beat me to the punch. Yes, I also assumed that the DOJ report was common knowledge. I guess not if you rely on CNN, MSNBC, NY Times, etc.

It is, and instead of making what seems to be a snarky, implied insult that a.) those outlets haven't covered it or b.) that no liberals have bothered to read it, you could simply do a google search and post them yourself and ask for others to weigh in. We'd all have better conversations if we'd discuss the issues rather than simply assuming what others have or haven't done and taking the opportunity to slam those with whom we don't agree. Personally, I have seen the headlines, but I haven't had time to read the report itself so I can weigh in with an informed opinion. Last week was sort of an insane week for political goings-on. :biggrin:
The hope of a secure and livable world lies with disciplined nonconformists who are dedicated to justice, peace and brotherhood. ~Martin Luther King, Jr.

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. ~Winston Churchill

Your scars exist, but it’s your courage that defines you. ~Nalini Singh
The following user(s) said Thank You: koobookie
Last edit: 27 Jan 2020 10:07 by MyMountainTown. Reason: Changed topic title per OP's request
26 Jan 2020 11:14 #17

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Replied by ramage on topic Questions I Can't Get Answers to From People I Disagree With

"
Also, when I did a Google search for Obama and drone strikes, I noticed that right-wing leaning and conspiracy sites kept using the number 2,800 for the number of drone strikes the Obama administration supposedly conducted. However, that's nowhere close to the actual number."
Really, and your source is correct? By the way what is it?

"It is, and instead of making what seems to be a snarky, implied insult that a.) those outlets haven't covered it or b.) that no liberals have bothered to read it, you could simply do a google search and post them yourself and ask for others to weigh in. We'd all have better conversations if we'd discuss the issues rather than simply assuming what others have or haven't done and taking the opportunity to slam those with whom we don't agree."
In point of fact, MSM has not covered it in any measured way as to its importance. Second,
other posters have dismissed out of hand reputable sources and refuse to read them. I use as an example breitrbart.com.
"snarky and implied insult" are your words not mine.
Last edit: 27 Jan 2020 10:06 by MyMountainTown. Reason: Changed topic title per OP's request
26 Jan 2020 13:04 #18

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Replied by Rick on topic Questions I Can'T Get Answers to From People I Disagree With

ScienceChic wrote: “The Left”
“Never”

I’m going to immediately veer right off topic because this topic is an example of what I don’t want to see here in the Courthouse. Your title started with labeling (in a demeaning manner) and moved right to an absolute, which isn’t reality.

.

I just changed the title. Is that acceptable to the Courthouse?

I'm happy you are participating in this thread... I intend to make it difficult to honestly answer my future questions that never get direct answers. I hope someone who believes the opposite of me starts a similar thread. We talk past each other's posts so often with diversions and deflections, I just thought I'd try a different approach. Sorry if this is offense in some way, my goal is to try and understand my ideological opposites instead of just dismissing them.
Last edit: 26 Jan 2020 20:17 by Rick.
26 Jan 2020 20:14 #19

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Replied by Rick on topic Questions I Can't Get Answers to From People I Disagree With

Question #2

I've heard for years now that the economy is booming because of Obama administration policies. Can someone please tell me what policies that administration put into place that caused the economy to take off after Trump's election?
Last edit: 27 Jan 2020 10:05 by MyMountainTown. Reason: Changed topic title per OP's request
26 Jan 2020 20:22 #20

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