Holy War in No. Carolina City!

Cat Crap Hill wrote: What's a Christian Flag?

[quote=Would you please post your evidence that this country was founded on Christianity?[/quote]

There is a book which was written in 1864 by Benjamin F. Morris, titled "The Christian Life and Character of the Civil Institutions of the United States" and another by Peter A. Lillback, titled "George Washington's Sacred Fire". These two books together will provide you every bit of proof that you will ever need to plainly see that virtually, every community, when originally established on the New Continent, were founded on Christian values and principles. Even Christopher Columbus dedicated the New World to Christ and to the spread of Christianity, to all corners of the earth.

The concept of "separation of Church and State is only a modern tenet and because of it, pretty much all references to the orignal intentions of the early settlers has been removed from our educational system. But, just because we didn't learn about it in school, doesn't mean it didn't happen. All one needs to do is a little research and you will discover, this is fact.

Here we go again.... No, this is NOT "A Christian Nation"... And YOU are welcome to scream all YOU want...

The Founding Fathers Were Not Christians
by Steven Morris, in Free Inquiry, Fall, 1995

"The Christian right is trying to rewrite the history of the United States as part of its campaign to force its religion on others. They try to depict the founding fathers as pious Christians who wanted the United States to be a Christian nation, with laws that favored Christians and Christianity.

This is patently untrue. The early presidents and patriots were generally Deists or Unitarians, believing in some form of impersonal Providence but rejecting the divinity of Jesus and the absurdities of the Old and New testaments.

Thomas Paine was a pamphleteer whose manifestos encouraged the faltering spirits of the country and aided materially in winning the war of Independence:
I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."
From:
The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine, pp. 8,9 (Republished 1984, Prometheus Books, Buffalo, NY)

George Washington, the first president of the United States, never declared himself a Christian according to contemporary reports or in any of his voluminous correspondence. Washington championed the cause of freedom from religious intolerance and compulsion. When John Murray (a universalist who denied the existence of hell) was invited to become an army chaplain, the other chaplains petitioned Washington for his dismissal. Instead, Washington gave him the appointment. On his deathbed, Washinton uttered no words of a religious nature and did not call for a clergyman to be in attendance.
From:
George Washington and Religion by Paul F. Boller Jr., pp. 16, 87, 88, 108, 113, 121, 127 (1963, Southern Methodist University Press, Dallas, TX)

John Adams, the country's second president, was drawn to the study of law but faced pressure from his father to become a clergyman. He wrote that he found among the lawyers 'noble and gallant achievements" but among the clergy, the "pretended sanctity of some absolute dunces". Late in life he wrote: "Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!"

It was during Adam's administration that the Senate ratified the Treaty of Peace and Friendship, which states in Article XI that "the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion."
From:
The Character of John Adams by Peter Shaw, pp. 17 (1976, North Carolina Press, Chapel Hill, NC) Quoting a letter by JA to Charles Cushing Oct 19, 1756, and John Adams, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by James Peabody, p. 403 (1973, Newsweek, New York NY) Quoting letter by JA to Jefferson April 19, 1817, and in reference to the treaty, Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 311 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to Dr. Benjamin Waterhouse, June, 1814.

Thomas Jefferson, third president and author of the Declaration of Independence, said:"I trust that there is not a young man now living in the United States who will not die a Unitarian." He referred to the Revelation of St. John as "the ravings of a maniac" and wrote:
The Christian priesthood, finding the doctrines of Christ leveled to every understanding and too plain to need explanation, saw, in the mysticisms of Plato, materials with which they might build up an artificial system which might, from its indistinctness, admit everlasting controversy, give employment for their order, and introduce it to profit, power, and pre-eminence. The doctrines which flowed from the lips of Jesus himself are within the comprehension of a child; but thousands of volumes have not yet explained the Platonisms engrafted on them: and for this obvious reason that nonsense can never be explained."
From:
Thomas Jefferson, an Intimate History by Fawn M. Brodie, p. 453 (1974, W.W) Norton and Co. Inc. New York, NY) Quoting a letter by TJ to Alexander Smyth Jan 17, 1825, and Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 246 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to John Adams, July 5, 1814.

James Madison, fourth president and father of the Constitution, was not religious in any conventional sense. "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, and in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
From:
The Madisons by Virginia Moore, P. 43 (1979, McGraw-Hill Co. New York, NY) quoting a letter by JM to William Bradford April 1, 1774, and James Madison, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by Joseph Gardner, p. 93, (1974, Newsweek, New York, NY) Quoting Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments by JM, June 1785.

Ethan Allen, whose capture of Fort Ticonderoga while commanding the Green Mountain Boys helped inspire Congress and the country to pursue the War of Independence, said, "That Jesus Christ was not God is evidence from his own words." In the same book, Allen noted that he was generally "denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious that I am no Christian." When Allen married Fanny Buchanan, he stopped his own wedding ceremony when the judge asked him if he promised "to live with Fanny Buchanan agreeable to the laws of God." Allen refused to answer until the judge agreed that the God referred to was the God of Nature, and the laws those "written in the great book of nature."
From:
Religion of the American Enlightenment by G. Adolph Koch, p. 40 (1968, Thomas Crowell Co., New York, NY.) quoting preface and p. 352 of Reason, the Only Oracle of Man and A Sense of History compiled by American Heritage Press Inc., p. 103 (1985, American Heritage Press, Inc., New York, NY.)

Benjamin Franklin, delegate to the Continental Congress and the Constitutional Convention, said:
As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion...has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his Divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the Truth with less trouble. He died a month later, and historians consider him, like so many great Americans of his time, to be a Deist, not a Christian.
From:
Benjamin Franklin, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by Thomas Fleming, p. 404, (1972, Newsweek, New York, NY) quoting letter by BF to Exra Stiles March 9, 1970.
________________________________________

The words "In God We Trust" were not consistently on all U.S. currency until 1956, during the McCarthy Hysteria .

The Treaty of Tripoli, passed by the U.S. Senate in 1797, read in part: "The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion." The treaty was written during the Washington administration, and sent to the Senate during the Adams administration. It was read aloud to the Senate, and each Senator received a printed copy. This was the 339th time that a recorded vote was required by the Senate, but only the third time a vote was unanimous (the next time was to honor George Washington). There is no record of any debate or dissension on the treaty. It was reprinted in full in three newspapers - two in Philadelphia, one in New York City. There is no record of public outcry or complaint in subsequent editions of the papers.

Jonathan Hemlock wrote:

Scruffy wrote: Would you please post your evidence that this country was founded on Christianity?

There is a book which was written in 1864 by Benjamin F. Morris, titled "The Christian Life and Character of the Civil Institutions of the United States" and another by Peter A. Lillback, titled "George Washington's Sacred Fire". These two books together will provide you every bit of proof that you will ever need to plainly see that virtually, every community, when originally established on the New Continent, were founded on Christian values and principles. Even Christopher Columbus dedicated the New World to Christ and to the spread of Christianity, to all corners of the earth.

The concept of "separation of Church and State is only a modern tenet and because of it, pretty much all references to the orignal intentions of the early settlers has been removed from our educational system. But, just because we didn't learn about it in school, doesn't mean it didn't happen. All one needs to do is a little research and you will discover, this is fact.

I do appreciate your response. I researched these books on Amazon, and I must tell you, I am not going to read a 1,200 page book and another 800 page book just to prove your point. That's a lot to ask and I've got lots of other things to do. I read through the comments, which ranged from "Rah Rah Yay. Washington was a Christian just like I thought!" to "The author starts out with a preconceived opinion and then twists facts to prove it." From the reviews, it appears that these books are not the most objective tomes.

From what I remember, Washington was a deist, not a Christian, and it was Jefferson that first coined the term "Separation of Church and State."

If you have some other information on your assertion that this nation was founded as a Christian nation (that doesn't require me to read books for the next three weeks,) please post them here.

Knowing full well that there is absolutely no chance of convincing you or whatshername of anything religious or political, I do want to reiterate one thing.

If you are right, then you have nothing to fear, but if you are wrong

---

?

It is your right to not believe, just as it is our right, to believe.

The problem is that the minority in this country has gotten away with intimidating the majority, through attacks and fear tactics, that are IMHO a travesty. We are called "right wing extremists" because we are veterans, we are called racists, because of our dissent to Obama's policies that in our opinions are taking us down the wrong path, and are destroying the very fabric of our society. We are called "homophobes" because we don't want our children taught immoral ( in our eyes ) acts in elementary schools or that such things are right, because you on the left, say it is so. We are attacked because your "ILK" wants to push agendas, that in the eyes of those of Judeo-Christian values, are against our beliefs. One person who has no faith can cause those of faith in large numbers, to be criticized and condemned, and it is IMO, about time to knock off this bullsh** PC that is allowing the minority to dictate to the majority. It is time, whether you like it or not, to stop having to press 1 to speak our own language, to stop having to live with multi-culturism, instead of merging all cultures into the melting pot that has caused us to be the richest, free-est, most powerful nation in the world, the most envied nation in the history of mankind.

You display a flag with a cross on it and say it is The Christian Flag, though we only recognize it as so, because it has the Cross on it. I, for one, have never seen one like it anywhere, though I am not Christian, but someone else inquired as to, what was the Christian Flag. I have never tried to ram Christianity down your throat, and most likely, no one else on this forum has done so, yet you blame us for what you have had to endure during your lifetime. I don't think that is fair to any of us. Yes, there are those who insist on Witnessing, or Proscelytizing, (attempting to convert) mostly born-again or Jehovah's Witnesses, and we all have had to deal with those people at some time or another, though I have always attempted to do so respectfully. I will not apologize to you for what others have done to you, Scruffy. I once accused my ex-wife of blaming me for what other men had apparently done to her before we met, this is how I see your argument.

I will mark down somewhere the fact that you actually gave in on the one point of allowing those veteran's buried already, to have their religious beliefs displayed. I wonder if I will ever get to record that again at some time in the future, doubtful, but I will wait and see.

Nmysys wrote: Knowing full well that there is absolutely no chance of convincing you or whatshername of anything religious or political, I do want to reiterate one thing.

If you are right, then you have nothing to fear, but if you are wrong

---

?

It is your right to not believe, just as it is our right, to believe.

The problem is that the minority in this country has gotten away with intimidating the majority, through attacks and fear tactics, that are IMHO a travesty. We are called "right wing extremists" because we are veterans, we are called racists, because of our dissent to Obama's policies that in our opinions are taking us down the wrong path, and are destroying the very fabric of our society. We are called "homophobes" because we don't want our children taught immoral ( in our eyes ) acts in elementary schools or that such things are right, because you on the left, say it is so. We are attacked because your "ILK" wants to push agendas, that in the eyes of those of Judeo-Christian values, are against our beliefs. One person who has no faith can cause those of faith in large numbers, to be criticized and condemned, and it is IMO, about time to knock off this bullsh** PC that is allowing the minority to dictate to the majority. It is time, whether you like it or not, to stop having to press 1 to speak our own language, to stop having to live with multi-culturism, instead of merging all cultures into the melting pot that has caused us to be the richest, free-est, most powerful nation in the world, the most envied nation in the history of mankind.

You display a flag with a cross on it and say it is The Christian Flag, though we only recognize it as so, because it has the Cross on it. I, for one, have never seen one like it anywhere, though I am not Christian, but someone else inquired as to, what was the Christian Flag. I have never tried to ram Christianity down your throat, and most likely, no one else on this forum has done so, yet you blame us for what you have had to endure during your lifetime. I don't think that is fair to any of us. Yes, there are those who insist on Witnessing, or Proscelytizing, (attempting to convert) mostly born-again or Jehovah's Witnesses, and we all have had to deal with those people at some time or another, though I have always attempted to do so respectfully. I will not apologize to you for what others have done to you, Scruffy. I once accused my ex-wife of blaming me for what other men had apparently done to her before we met, this is how I see your argument.

I will mark down somewhere the fact that you actually gave in on the one point of allowing those veteran's buried already, to have their religious beliefs displayed. I wonder if I will ever get to record that again at some time in the future, doubtful, but I will wait and see.

I am sorry if you think I was blaming you for what others have "shoved on me." You have not. In my book, you're an okay guy, Nmysys.

I take issue with your ILK comment again. You say that is it me and my ILK that is pushing our minority agenda down your throats, well, I see it as exactly the opposite. Take for example the great prayer in school debate. I think it was int he 60's that Madeleine Murray O'Hair filed the lawsuit to remove prayer from schools. Of course, it's not so simple as that, but what was actually happening was that schools were having prayers over the loudspeaker, prayers in assemblies, etc., and those students that did not participate were bullied and ostracized. In that particular situation, would you agree that the majority was shoving their beliefs down the minority throats? That's how I see it.

BTW - I just googled "Christian flag" to get that image, but it is exactly what I remember from my Bible school days.

I believe you therefore I would agree that it must have been bullying. Not being part of the group that allegedly bullied you ( couldn't pass that one up), again I don't share in the blame. Having been young once myself, I know, hard to believe, I, too suffered my share of bullying, which only served to make me a better and stronger person. Now it is TOTD, ( topic of the day ) to regulate against bullying, though I doubt that it or any of the other agendas presented, are anything more than an obsession with power and control, by the Democratic Party that claims to care so much, but doesn't show any signs of actually caring. This is my opinion, though some of you will again spout off some talking points of the day routine.

I refer to Louisiana where it has been a Democratic Stronghold for a half century before Katrina, yet, everything was the fault of the Republicans. For all that time it was known that the Dykes needed to be re-built, ( did I use that word? ) no offense intended to anyone on this forum, yet nothing was ever done. Oh yes, the Democratic Party Cares :bash , but it is all political bullsh**, as usual.

Getting off subject.

I started this thread for a particular reason. I, for one, am tired of the attacks on those who have faith, whether it be Christian Faith, Judaism, Buddhism, etc. Notice I did not include the Muslim Faith, because from what I have read, I am convinced that at the heart of it, it is not a Peaceful Religion, to other faiths. Arguably, neither are the ones I have mentioned, because History shows differently, but the basic tenets of those religions do not call for Wars Arbitrarily against those who do not have the same faith.

Nmysys wrote: I believe you therefore I would agree that it must have been bullying. Not being part of the group that allegedly bullied you ( couldn't pass that one up), again I don't share in the blame. Having been young once myself, I know, hard to believe, I, too suffered my share of bullying, which only served to make me a better and stronger person. Now it is TOTD, ( topic of the day ) to regulate against bullying, though I doubt that it or any of the other agendas presented, are anything more than an obsession with power and control, by the Democratic Party that claims to care so much, but doesn't show any signs of actually caring. This is my opinion, though some of you will again spout off some talking points of the day routine.

I refer to Louisiana where it has been a Democratic Stronghold for a half century before Katrina, yet, everything was the fault of the Republicans. For all that time it was known that the Dykes needed to be re-built, ( did I use that word? ) no offense intended to anyone on this forum, yet nothing was ever done. Oh yes, the Democratic Party Cares :bash , but it is all political bullsh**, as usual.

Yes, you said "re-built." For shame.

For what it's worth, I was not bullied by Christians, just constantly surrounded by them.

Nmysys wrote: Getting off subject.

I started this thread for a particular reason. I, for one, am tired of the attacks on those who have faith, whether it be Christian Faith, Judaism, Buddhism, etc. Notice I did not include the Muslim Faith, because from what I have read, I am convinced that at the heart of it, it is not a Peaceful Religion, to other faiths. Arguably, neither are the ones I have mentioned, because History shows differently, but the basic tenets of those religions do not call for Wars Arbitrarily against those who do not have the same faith.

You really truly believe that those of faith are under attack? I see it very much differently. To me, it can be summarized in this:
"I don't care what you believe or do not believe. Just do it on your own private property and do not flaunt it in my face."
Kind of similar to my views on sexuality.

I now realize the futility of my efforts. I don't know why I am so frequently deceived into thinking that when someone asks a question, they may actually want the answer. Good job Scruffy, I was fooled again.

What a concept, ask a question and get an answer!!!!!

Gee Scruffy that's twice on the same topic that you backed off. Going soft?