I can see both sides of this issue. The need to be able to identify someone is critical, but at what point does it become an infringement on personal and religious liberty?
I imagine the answer to that is when it becomes a problem for the particular society. There are issues of security involved as well in an open society. Let's imagine that someone dressed in a burkha with a veil robs a bank or shoots someone in the street, what will witnesses do about describing the assailant or robber? Which comes first, the personal or Religious Liberty, or the need to protect the society as a whole?
I don't know, Nmysys. Interesting question and a very thin line to be walked. If I understand the situation correctly, it appears that France has placed the security of the nation above religious, and private rights, to cover a womans face. Is this a similar situation to the denial of a right to yell "fire" in a crowded theater?
Realize, if you will, and you can read back over some previous threads or do some research about it, but in France and elsewhere in Europe the impact of a huge number of Muslims into their society has caused problems, Instead of assimilating into their culture, the Muslims have insisted that they be allowed to live by their own laws (Sharia ) and their own customs. Normally that wouldn't be that big of a deal, until it reached such huge proportions. Now becoming a large part of the country they have begun to insist that the country adopt their customs and laws. They block the streets for prayer and they riot. They display signs of hate for the country they are in. It has gotten out of hand, and as a result, from what I have been reading, France has started like some of the other European countries, to pass laws that they think are necessary.
There are those of us here on this forum that continually try to point out to others, the danger and warning signs, that this either is or will, happen here, as well.
Do you have a driver's license? Is your picture on it?
Now imagine a Muslim lady who is wearing a veil for that picture. If a policeman were to look at the picture, for any reason, would he able to verify that it is indeed that woman?
Can you see reasons why covering up one's face in public could then be a problem is society? How about voting? How about cashing a check?? Enough questions?
Having to have your picture taken for proper identification is a must. If they don't like it, then they can choose to not get a license, as driving is a privlege, not a right. Similarly, if they are pulled over, they must prove that they are the person pictured by showing law enforcement their face. Last time I cashed a check, I only had to enter my pin number on a pad at the bank - no ID required other than knowing how to access my own account. As well, the last time I voted at a booth (mail-in only now), all I had to do was state my name - no ID required. Of course, that's here and not France, so you can make the argument that it might be different over there. To which I would say, you spend the time finding out since it's your issue, not mine.
However, banning them from wearing veils while just out walking around in public, which is a freedom, is the wrong thing to do. This law is a response to fear of Muslims, and is a restriction on their freedom of religion. Moreover, it's a ridiculous way to reduce suicide attacks - it's punishing thousands of law-abiding citizens for a handful of zealots, pissing off those who try to be good citizens, and good people by following their own personal religious beliefs, and have no intention of harming their fellow countrymen, and completely useless at stopping suicide attacks. This law is, in short, idiotic, short-sighted, ineffectual, and government interference in personal freedoms.
"Now, more than ever, the illusions of division threaten our very existence. We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another as if we were one single tribe.” -King T'Challa, Black Panther
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. ~Winston Churchill
and good people by following their own personal religious beliefs, and have no intention of harming their fellow countrymen, and completely useless at stopping suicide attacks. This law is, in short, idiotic, short-sighted, ineffectual, and government interference in personal freedoms.
Is that according to French Law, or what you assume is some kind of Universal Law?
BTW. How do you know that they have no intentions of harming their fellow countrymen? How do you tell the difference?
My argument always has been that it is up to those Peace Loving members of the faith to stand up to those who are not, but I don't see that happening. Is there an accurate assessment of which ones are the Peace-Loving ones?
How do I know that they have no intentions of harming their fellow countrymen? How many suicide attackers/attacks are there each year versus the total number of Muslims in the world (1.4 billion and counting)? The numbers don't add up to assume that each and every one of them harbors ill will.
You don't see the peace-loving ones stand up to the extremists because you don't search out that information. You are biased against Muslims and only see that which supports your preconceived notions. I've linked to many websites where Muslims denounce radical attacks, organize walks to raise awareness and condemn atrocities, did you even read any of them?
"Now, more than ever, the illusions of division threaten our very existence. We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another as if we were one single tribe.” -King T'Challa, Black Panther
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. ~Winston Churchill
I read them all the time SC. In fact I just posted from an article from the Islam Times.
How many suicide attackers/attacks are there each year versus the total number of Muslims in the world (1.4 billion and counting)?
That is a terrible equation SC. No one has said that all Muslims or even all terrorists are Suicide Bombers.
IMO they are usually the poor, ignorant, or just totally brainwashed of the extremists. Are you assuming that all extremists are suicide bombers? You are aware that we are at war in three places around the middle east, aren't you? They are fighting wars against us, as well as being suicide bombers. ( Maybe they know that there aren't that many virgins left in Paradise ).
My questions were not answered, even scientifically. How are we to tell the difference???
We have had postings before from the Koran where it says that it is NOT a sin to lie to the unbelievers.
That means us, the rest of the world, who are not Muslims. All the events that you talk about, where they protest to be peace-loving people, could just as easily be their public face, or persona and not the truth. Remember the Mosque at Ground Zero they want to build? Is that to show solidarity with the West? I think it is to rub our noses in it.
I see this as a win for women’s rights. The law is helping Muslim women step out from the dominance and control of their husbands or fathers. It’s not that France is afraid of Muslims France is afraid of losing it’s culture.
