France begins ban on full-face veil

Michael Jackson used to wear a veil in Dubai......

(some authorities likely thanked Allah for that)

:thumbsup:
Or was it just because he was gender confused?

chickaree wrote: I know what I've learned from family members who have spent time in the middle east as well as from a muslim co worker. Am I an expert? By no means, but as a woman of faith myself I object when I see other faithful women's rights infringed on even when their faith os different from my own. Do you not think that a fake beard, sunglasses and a hat effectively hides ones identity as well as a veil without drawing the same degree of attention? This is an attack on religion, pure and simple. Now I am not an expert on the French constitution either, but the passage of these laws lead me to believe that it does not extend the same protections to the freedom to practice ones religion that ours does. For this I am especially thankful to be an American citizen.

If your first part were true this would be a valid point. But wearing the burqa is NOT a religious requisite. In fact its origins has nothing to do with religion. The most unfortunate part is that this issue is being twisted into all kinds of issues that have little to do with it, such as women's rights.

Growing and wearing a beard is quite different from what you now state as wearing a "fake beard, sunglasses and a hat", something you may have had in mind when you first mentioned it but never came out and said it. Sure, if you are going to wear a get-up like that there are problems, but they are not unique to men. The same applies to going fully covered, it is not unique to women when it comes to terrorism. Both provide means of obscuring your identity.

Your third part regarding religious freedom and laws highlights a fundamental problem. More ill-advised laws have been written and enacted in the name of religion. Any law that deals with how one dresses or does not dress is anal. We do not come into this world clothed or with fur, but religion has done it's best to impose it's sense of right and wrong. Religion serves as a moral compass, but that compass insists on not limiting itself to its body of believers. Instead it imposes its values on all others and this is why we have so many problems on anal matters like how one dresses. Let's not pat ourselves on the back too much about how great our religious freedoms are in the America. I'm certain there are many who feel quite persecuted.

The point I am making Rockdoc is that this law has nothing to do with security, it is religious persecution. To approve of it simply because it is a religion we misunderstand and fear does not excuse the sin.

A full veil is not prescribed anywhere in the Quran.
(it is prescribed by fundamental sects of Islam)

I think the argument for security is that a full veil is not required by the tenants of Islam - and therefore, the trait being persecuted is NOT religion. Rather, it's veiling - which is contrary to the social and security interests of France.

(My crack at stating the opposition's view)

bailey bud wrote: A full veil is not prescribed anywhere in the Quran.
(it is prescribed by fundamental sects of Islam)

I think the argument for security is that a full veil is not required by the tenants of Islam - and therefore, the trait being persecuted is NOT religion. Rather, it's veiling - which is contrary to the social and security interests of France.

(My crack at stating the opposition's view)

That too is the point I was trying to make. How can it be religious persecution when it is not part of a religious doctrine?

Are either of you asserting that the women who wear these veils don't have faith that they are conforming to Gods will? Isn't that what religion boils down to? Obeying the will of God as we believe it to be?

chickaree wrote: The point I am making Rockdoc is that this law has nothing to do with security, it is religious persecution. To approve of it simply because it is a religion we misunderstand and fear does not excuse the sin.

If it veiling were part of the Islamic doctrine, then I'd have to agree with you, but it IS NOT. Hence no persecution. But you have hit on what I think the reality of the situation is, namely a testy fight between the Muslim community as a whole vs western principles. In general, like nationals, muslims wish to preserve their culture that in part includes perceptions on modest dress. What is hypocritical is that when you live in a place like Saudi, where veiling is legislated to locals, you are expected to abide (respect) by their customs. Women who show ankles or too much neckline, or uncovered arms, etc. are harassed by the local religious police (this from personal experience with wife and friends). Men are discouraged from wearing shorts, t-shirts, etc. in Saudi. Why? Because they find it offensive. Yet, when they come to other countries, these same vocal muslims do not wish to honor (respect) cultural of the country in which they have been graciously accepted to make their home or for work. Instead, they cry persecution, etc. The French are doing something about it because they find it offensive too, or for principle sake or who knows why. Call it karma banking in action.

Just so you know, religious persecution is the norm in the Middle East. Ask BB how many Christian or other churches can be found in various ME countries, the heart of Islam.

chickaree wrote: Are either of you asserting that the women who wear these veils don't have faith that they are conforming to Gods will? Isn't that what religion boils down to? Obeying the will of God as we believe it to be?

That is not it at all. What BB and I are saying is simply that veiling is not a religious mandate of Islam. We are saying that the women who do insist on going veiled outside of an Islamic country do so for no other reason than habit, personal, etc.

May I also point out that NO ONE HAS EVER HEARD GOD WILL anything. The will of God or words espoused and written by believers who have their only connection to God through faith. NOONE had ever spoken to God directly. A leap of faith is the only connection all religion offers as a connection to God. It is because you believe, not because it is and that is the harsh reality. It is your prerogative to do so, but there are just as many others who have other beliefs and it is their prerogative to hold those as well. So in answer to your question, NO. Religion is not a matter of conforming to God's will, it is a matter of conforming to what you and others believe to be God's will as is your right. It is a set of religious guidelines established by believers. So if you wish to preserve your right to believe what you want and thus have the right to veil (even if it is not part of religious doctrine), are others (non-believers) denied their rights in the process? Must the minority force their standards on others?

What rights of others are infringed upon by these womens veils?