France begins ban on full-face veil

chickaree wrote: What rights of others are infringed upon by these womens veils?

The Frenchmen's rights to their cultural norms. Clearly they find them offensive.

Rockdoc Franz wrote:

chickaree wrote: What rights of others are infringed upon by these womens veils?

The Frenchmen's rights to their cultural norms. Clearly they find them offensive.

I think you nailed it, Rockdoc. This isn't about security threats, it's about the French finding it upsetting to be confronted by the growing presence in their country of a different culture. The question is....is that a legitimate thing to legislate against or not?

Personally, I am conflicted by this issue. Is it okay to make it illegal to wear other religious symbols, like a crucifix?

I guess what it comes down to, in my mind, that there is little difference between laws MANDATING a burka and laws BANNING a burka. Once you start mandating a cultural/religious norm, you are opening the door to all kinds of abuse.

France also regulates speech/writings. Clothing is the next step.

AspenValley wrote:

Rockdoc Franz wrote:

chickaree wrote: What rights of others are infringed upon by these womens veils?

The Frenchmen's rights to their cultural norms. Clearly they find them offensive.

I think you nailed it, Rockdoc. This isn't about security threats, it's about the French finding it upsetting to be confronted by the growing presence in their country of a different culture. The question is....is that a legitimate thing to legislate against or not?

Personally, I am conflicted by this issue. Is it okay to make it illegal to wear other religious symbols, like a crucifix?

I guess what it comes down to, in my mind, that there is little difference between laws MANDATING a burka and laws BANNING a burka. Once you start mandating a cultural/religious norm, you are opening the door to all kinds of abuse.

Clearly, I think the security card is just a ruse. Truth be known, as a former foreigner to the US, I still remain sensitive to cultural idiosyncrasies. The best way to blend in and become less foreign as a kid is to be observant. I voice this as a precursor to my 10 year experience of living in and another 10 years of working extensively in the Middle East. I try to blend in and respect a foreign culture. After all I elected to live and work there. This is why I dressed appropriately, tried to learn the language, make friends with locals, and reserve judgement. Since my initial introduction, I come to find the word "offensive" when used to describe western dress quite offensive in return. You may certainly practice any religion you wish any way you want to, but I do not wish to be forced to abide by your religious beliefs when you come into my home. I also expect that you will return my respect and tolerance for your religious/cultural practices in return. My experience is anything but mutual respect and that has made me less than embracing or considerate for the Muslim uproar headlined in France. I do believe (not fact) that the French are reacting to the lack of respect Muslims living in their country extend to the French people. Whether or not this leads to abuse (and it certainly can as you point out) remains to be seen. Like so many issues the skirt respect, the tolerance for the lack there of varies. But, I'd submit from personal experience, that if you do not respect me the same way you expect from me, then I may just become somewhat inflexible and insist on what I deserve.

I suppose this is a synopsis for users of 285 as well. If you expect your opinions to be respected, then give the same respect to others.

I'd agree that when you are a guest of a foreign culture you do owe respect to your hosts. But...when does an immigrant culture stop being a guest? There are people here in Colordo, heck, here on this forum, who think "Mexicans" represent a foreign culture even though there have been Mexicans in Colorado longer than there have been Anglos. Part of it is a matter of dominance. If Anglos think they are or should be the dominant culture in Colorado, they are going to be offended if Mexicans in Colorado don't submit to Anglo culture. But are they entitled to feel that way? Or are they just blinded into an entitlement mentality that makes them think "their" culture should be the one respected? Is it a matter of numerical superiority?

I guess my point it is that it isn't always so easy to say who is entitled to dictate cultural norms.

AspenValley wrote: I'd agree that when you are a guest of a foreign culture you do owe respect to your hosts. But...when does an immigrant culture stop being a guest? There are people here in Colordo, heck, here on this forum, who think "Mexicans" represent a foreign culture even though there have been Mexicans in Colorado longer than there have been Anglos. Part of it is a matter of dominance. If Anglos think they are or should be the dominant culture in Colorado, they are going to be offended if Mexicans in Colorado don't submit to Anglo culture. But are they entitled to feel that way? Or are they just blinded into an entitlement mentality that makes them think "their" culture should be the one respected? Is it a matter of numerical superiority?

I guess my point it is that it isn't always so easy to say who is entitled to dictate cultural norms.

That is a good point. You may or may not know that I am German by birth, and a naturalized American. If I were to choose to live in a community that preserves my German culture, I'm not sure if I would be fully embracing being American. My perception is that I continue to cling to my roots for whatever purpose. Letting go of my roots does not mean I do not retain pride in being German or sorrow for my countries past transgressions. I've elected to do the latter. I'd like to think it not so much as a submission as an acceptance of Anglo culture. My view on this matter comes down to attitude. All foreigners face similar choices. For some it is more extreme than it was for me, for example, the Vietnamese who came to this country following the war. Unlike me, they stand out physically and thus have to overcome American perspectives on that aspect to become Americans. Ultimately, many do it because they want to and are proud to be American. My take of the Mexican issue is that it represents a mixed bag. One group embraces becoming American much like I did, whereas others keep that at Arms length for reasons they only know. I suppose my bias is that if you elect to come to this country, it is your obligation to embrace it in its full context, not demand that my original cultural norms must be incorporated or embraced by the countries people where I have chosen to live. To me the key word is chosen as that carries an obligation to my way of thinking. If you do not wish to embrace your adopted country, then you are free to go back to where you came from. So, as you can see, I have less confusion over this issue than you do perhaps. This country is not based upon Mexican or Spanish principles. It is based upon Anglo principles, so majority or minority have little to do with this matter to my way of thinking.

Is Colorado part of the United States of America, or is it part of Mexico?

A very thoughtful post AV.. Not sure what my opinion is...I'll need to think further on it. Thanks for that point of view.

jf1acai wrote: Is Colorado part of the United States of America, or is it part of Mexico?

It's part of the United States, of course. But my point is that it is not so easy to say what is the "United States" culture. Visit Hawaii and you'll get one idea. Visit New Mexico, and another. Visit New York city, another yet.

What is American culture? Is it more represented by a WASP descended from Mayflower ancestors or by an Irish-American family who came over during the potato famine? How about a Scots-Irish family in Applachia as opposed to a working class Polish family in Chicago? A third-generation Hispanic family in LA or a newly naturalized Vietnamese family running a family restaurant in Greeley?

I'd argue that what we think of as "American Culture" is a lot more nuanced than we tend to think of it as. It's not the white-bread families we see on TV, it's a lot of cultures and people with varying degrees of assimilation. We never really have been a melting pot, it's a myth.

On the other hand....I do think that to have a stable society, some degree of agreement as to "who" we are is imperative. I don't buy the idea that we can all just live in our own little worlds, in our own little cultures, and still have a meaningful and coherent persona as a nation. Where to draw the line? Do we try to legisilate conformity to gain the greater goal of coherence? I don't pretend to have all the answers, I'm just trying to raise some questions.

The culture in Afghanistan is that women must wear the Niqab. I am equally opposed to that. Al free people should be allowed to express their religion freely as long as it hurts no one else. I fail to see how the 2000 women in France are hurting anything. If we wnat to give a pass to religious intolerance then we should be prepared to face it ourselves.