Federal Judge Prohibits Prayer at Texas Graduation Ceremony

PrintSmith wrote: Well, I admit that I am using reason and logic to come to my conclusion. You disagree but provide no counterargument that can be examined with reason and logic. Your sole support lies in this is what I think and therefore it is valid. My conclusion is reached by examining the purpose and not simply employing religious bigotry to sustain the argument.

I look forward to your reason and logic in proving how prayer is not a religious activity.

I'm waiting for the part where "reason and logic" are used to prove that chanting/praying to an invisible being with superpowers whose existence cannot be proven, but whose sole support is "what I think and therefore it is valid", is not reverse religious bigotry.

A similar topic was moved into this thread.

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285 Road Crew wrote: A similar topic was moved into this thread.

:thumbsup:

OT Is there a technical reason for doing that? Conservation of bandwith?

No one ever said that prayer wasn't religious Kate. The argument is that if I am praying for an assembled group it is an individual prayer that I am saying, not a state sponsored establishment of religion. If the graduation ceremony included the Eucharist, then you would have an argument - and one I would agree with. If the prayer was a recitation of the Lord's Prayer, then you would have and argument - and one I would agree with. When someone is invited to say a prayer for the assembled, it is not the state, not the assembled that are praying, it is the individual. Amen means, quite simply, let it be so. Let us be watched over, protected and guided by that which is greater than our own self interest. May we acquire wisdom, compassion and be loving to each other throughout the course of our lives. There is nothing objectionable in an invocation, a blessing, given by a single person to an assembled group. It is part of our heritage from our earliest days as a free and sovereign people, a part of our history, part of what makes us unique. It is not an Anglican who always gives an invocation as it once was, nor a Baptist, nor an Episcopalian, a Quaker, a Trinitarian, a Unitarian, a rabbi, a Muslim - it is the ultimate expression of our ability to be people of different faiths and still share a common heritage of being a citizen of a state within a union of states. We can, and do, receive the same blessing from someone whose faith is likely different from our own without offense, without exclusion, without regard to race, color, gender, sexual preference or creed. The individual giving the invocation is asking that all of us, regardless of who or what we believe, be the beneficiary of guidance, protection and wisdom.

An invocation is part of our history. We have them at the start of every legislative session of Congress. There is a Red Mass every year that the justices of the Supreme Court attend, along with members of Congress, the cabinet and occasionally even the President of the United States. The president and other elected leaders routinely say "May God Bless you and the United States of America". That is an invocation, given by the chief executive of the nation, on a regular basis. The invocation at the graduation is not in any way appreciably different simply because of who it is that gives the invocation.

PrintSmith wrote: No one ever said that prayer wasn't religious Kate. The argument is that if I am praying for an assembled group it is an individual prayer that I am saying, not a state sponsored establishment of religion. If the graduation ceremony included the Eucharist, then you would have an argument - and one I would agree with. If the prayer was a recitation of the Lord's Prayer, then you would have and argument - and one I would agree with. When someone is invited to say a prayer for the assembled, it is not the state, not the assembled that are praying, it is the individual. Amen means, quite simply, let it be so. Let us be watched over, protected and guided by that which is greater than our own self interest. May we acquire wisdom, compassion and be loving to each other throughout the course of our lives. There is nothing objectionable in an invocation, a blessing, given by a single person to an assembled group. It is part of our heritage from our earliest days as a free and sovereign people, a part of our history, part of what makes us unique. It is not an Anglican who always gives an invocation as it once was, nor a Baptist, nor an Episcopalian, a Quaker, a Trinitarian, a Unitarian, a rabbi, a Muslim - it is the ultimate expression of our ability to be people of different faiths and still share a common heritage of being a citizen of a state within a union of states. We can, and do, receive the same blessing from someone whose faith is likely different from our own without offense, without exclusion, without regard to race, color, gender, sexual preference or creed. The individual giving the invocation is asking that all of us, regardless of who or what we believe, be the beneficiary of guidance, protection and wisdom.

An invocation is part of our history. We have them at the start of every legislative session of Congress. There is a Red Mass every year that the justices of the Supreme Court attend, along with members of Congress, the cabinet and occasionally even the President of the United States. The president and other elected leaders routinely say "May God Bless you and the United States of America". That is an invocation, given by the chief executive of the nation, on a regular basis. The invocation at the graduation is not in any way appreciably different simply because of who it is that gives the invocation.

No one ever said that prayer wasn't religious, huh?

PrintSmith wrote: There is a difference between having a religious leader lead everyone is reciting the Rosary and having them give an invocation asking that God watch over, protect and bless the assembled. One is organized religious activity, one is not.

Seems to me that you defined prayer as the opposite of religious activity. Want to try that again?


Admittedly, this is from Wikipedia, but it's a very succinct summary of prayer...

Prayer is a form of religious practice that seeks to activate a volitional rapport to God or spirit through deliberate practice.

This is from the dictionary...

1. a devout petition to god or an object of worship.
2. a spiritual communion with God or an object of worship, as in supplication, thanksgiving, adoration, or confession.
3. the act or practice of praying to God or an object of worship.

Now, I'm not exactly what kind of reason and logic you practice, but it sure seems to me like prayer is commonly considered to be a religious activity.

It is indeed part of the free expression of religion that occurs everyday in this nation. The question is not whether or not prayer is religious in nature, but whether or not having someone say a prayer for an assembled group rises to the level of the state sponsoring that religion to the exclusion of all others - which is what establishing a state religion does and what is prohibited by selectively incorporating some of the protections of the Bill of Rights as being applicable to the states equally with the general government.

Do you disagree that "May God Bless you and the United States of America" is an invocation delivered by the President of the United States of America on a regular basis? Is it your contention that this violates the establishment clause included in the 1st Amendment? If not, then how is it in any way different for someone else to do the same thing at a public event? Why is it a violation of the amendment when a religious leader gives an invocation before an assembled group but not when the President of the Untied States engages in precisely the same thing at the conclusion of a speech?

You very clearly put forth the argument that prayer is not a religious activity. Still waiting for your logic and reasoning that would prove that supposition.

And since I have demonstrated that an invocation is not a violation of the establishment clause you refuse to directly address it. That's fine Kate, we all know that an invocation doesn't violate the 1st Amendment in any manner shape or form. All that this nonsense is about advancing religious bigotry - we get it. Inviting someone to say a prayer for the assembled at the beginning or end of the assembly does not now, nor has it ever, violated the establishment clause of the 1st Amendment. There is no requirement that you worship the deity that they invoke. There is no requirement that you financially support their house of worship with your tax dollars, or regularly attend worship services there. What is happening is not a congregational worship - it is the receiving of a blessing that the speaker is delivering; the intent of which is to benefit you, not the speaker's deity nor even the speaker themselves.

Prayer is a religious activity Kate, but it isn't a religious activity established by the state for all of the state's citizens when it is an invocation delivered to a small gathering at a local high school graduation. The differences between the two are far greater than their similarities. We have invocations and benedictions in our legislative halls throughout the country each and every day that they are in session. The President himself regularly delivers an invocation when he asks that God Bless you and this nation. We have had national days of prayer throughout the history of this nation as well. The last of which was April 29th of this year when the president wrote, "And let us ask God for the sustenance and guidance for all of us to meet the great challenges we face as a Nation." He asked us to pray Kate - specifically pray to God - all without violating the establishment clause. This is because when someone is praying for you, it is an individual praying for you, not the state. The state is not asking you to say its prayer, worship the God it recognizes or support it's religious house of worship. An individual is invoking their God to be kind to you. That is what an invocation is - it is someone praying for you, not someone leading you in prayer.

People who pray in public just want to be noticed for doing so...