Food Stamp Etiquette: Human Kindness

zhawke wrote:
Second, when you say, "If you are so bankrupt of the understanding of human nature, then, yes, you are a fool", what is that if not, at the very least, a covert/implied accusation? What is your implied message regarding basic human nature? Are you really that cynical?

So... let me ask a question. If you were in charge of... oh let's say a food pantry or some charity like that... would you hand out food to everyone or anyone, without trying to discern a need... without delving into at what need level that person is at, how you could help versus how much you should help?

The Liberals GOP Twin wrote:

zhawke wrote:
Second, when you say, "If you are so bankrupt of the understanding of human nature, then, yes, you are a fool", what is that if not, at the very least, a covert/implied accusation? What is your implied message regarding basic human nature? Are you really that cynical?

So... let me ask a question. If you were in charge of... oh let's say a food pantry or some charity like that... would you hand out food to everyone or anyone, without trying to discern a need... without delving into at what need level that person is at, how you could help versus how much you should help?

You can ask all the questions you want to. I won't be answering any of them until you've answered my request(s) for a definition of "socialism". Your continued use of evasive "discussion" techniques won't work with me.

zhawke wrote: [ What is your implied message regarding basic human nature? Are you really that cynical?

If we do not learn from history.................




http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -work.html

neptunechimney wrote:

zhawke wrote: [ What is your implied message regarding basic human nature? Are you really that cynical?

If we do not learn from history.................




http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -work.html

I still choose to believe in honesty and integrity as key and integral parts of basic human nature. I don't dispute, nor have I ever disputed, there are those who will take unfair and unjustifiable advantage of a system that, by its very size and complexity, is subject to these kinds of abuses (and, yes, I did read the entire article). What I do dispute is the often times blanket types of assertions and accusations that claim rampant fraud in a program, or similar programs, when there appears to be no verifiable documentation of same. I state categorically right here and right now that I'm not saying these types of abuses are "right". If someone (like the people in this article) is brazen enough to come forward publicly (as they have) and openly state in the public media (as they have) that they are abusing the system (which they are), an investigation should take place and corrective measures be implemented.

FYI, typing in "Welfare Fraud" into the YouTube search engine yields over 7 pages of instances where this type of fraud exists and/or is being investigated. So, I do NOT deny these types of abuses exist! However, investigating and correcting these types of instances is, IMHO, what needs to be focused on rather than just doing away with a program that serves the needs of so many who actually deserve these types of benefits. To me, that would sorta be like throwing out the baby with the bath water, so to speak.

Again, all I'm saying is that if, and until, someone can provide verifiable proof of rampant fraud (and by "rampant", I use the dictionary definition as provided in http://www.thefreedictionary.com/rampant ), in this case in the food stamp program, I won't apologize for my support of the need for these types of programs.

What I do dispute is the often times blanket types of assertions and accusations that claim rampant fraud in a program, or similar programs, when there appears to be no verifiable documentation of same.

I'm the one who claims that this welfare state is in the state of "rampant abuse". Why? Because it's absolutely the truth.

Did you read the article I posted a link to? I bet you did not because you have no comment about it.
http://www.salon.com/2010/03/16/hipsters_food_stamps_pinched/

Magida, a 30-year-old art school graduate, had been installing museum exhibits for a living until the recession caused arts funding — and her usual gigs — to dry up. She applied for food stamps last summer, and since then she’s used her $150 in monthly benefits for things like fresh produce, raw honey and fresh-squeezed juices from markets near her house in the neighborhood of Hampden, and soy meat alternatives and gourmet ice cream from a Whole Foods a few miles away.

“I’m eating better than I ever have before,” she told me.

You don't think this is abuse? You and I are coming from 2 totally different viewpoints...... See- I pay for all the food I eat by earning the money for it!

Mak, 31, grew up in Westchester, graduated from the University of Chicago and toiled in publishing in New York during his 20s before moving to Baltimore last year with a meager part-time blogging job and prospects for little else. About half of his friends in Baltimore have been getting food stamps since the economy toppled, so he decided to give it a try; to his delight, he qualified for $200 a month.

“I’m sort of a foodie, and I’m not going to do the ‘living off ramen’ thing,” he said, fondly remembering a recent meal he’d prepared of roasted rabbit with butter, tarragon and sweet potatoes. “I used to think that you could only get processed food and government cheese on food stamps, but it’s great that you can get anything.”

I suppose you don't think this is abuse either? A 31 year old man on food stamps with an entitlement attitude! Now I'm starting to think that zhawke is off her rocker! You think this is acceptable- and I do not.

About half of his friends in Baltimore have been getting food stamps since the economy toppled, so he decided to give it a try; to his delight, he qualified for $200 a month.

You don't think that "half of his friends in Baltimore" is "rampant"? Well I do! Yes- to his "delight" he also qualified for free money. Who turns down free money? You think human nature is somthing to trust and that people are honest? You're out of your mind!

You don't think this free government money discourages people from doing the right thing? I do. You don't think this creates an un-healthy attitude where it's easier to lay back and let the taxpayers support you're lazy ass? I do.

And if you don't think this affects the productivity of our economy- you just don't understand economics at all.

I know (personally) several people on food stamps and subsidized housing. Every single one of them would be doing much more for themselves - except that the welfare state makes it easier for them to stay where they are- unproductive and lazy.

I know a family from Hiwan Country Club where I grew up with 4 daughters. 3 of them are on food stamps and subsidized housing- the 4th lives at home with her parents. Every one of them are fully capable of supporting themselves, but they use the excuse of being single mom's for needing the assistance.

Their father is a millionaire. They were all raised with a silver spoon in their mouth- thinking that they entitled to an easy life that someone else gets to pay for. This is the honest truth! You don't think this is a problem?

The government is the default baby daddy to hundreds of thousands of people like this- and we have conditioned them to care less about their own economic condition and the economic condition of their children because we have made it too easy to leach off the productive working class taxpayers.

I have another friend who got in a fight with her boyfriend- she simply got mad at him and moved out. The next week she applied for food stamps and subsidized housing and was approved immediately- including immediate funds for her child. She did not need the assistance- but the government was all too willing to give it to her.

I also know many single moms who seem to have no problem at all supporting themselves and their children by earning it themselves. Many of them would not even consider asking the taxpayers to be responsible for them. Many of them do not have college degrees- but work in food service or in the many medical offices we have here in town.

Don't accuse me of a lie- there are people who choose to earn their own way- and those who choose to be leaches on society for their entire lives. You are simply dreaming if you think that the government will address the RAMPANT abuse and fraud in our welfare state. They have been working on doing that for decades- and the problem still exists.

The way to help these people is not through government welfare- it's through community charity programs. Programs like this do not force money from taxpayers for lazy people- they work directly with the truely needy and they are responsive to real need. They are also much more effective at identifing real need from "rampant abuse", unlike some of the welfare state supporters on this web site!

And that is the truth!

Arlen wrote: zhawke is archer. So, zhawke goes on ignore.

No...zhawke is not me, but I am pleased Arlen has me on ignore.

archer wrote:

Arlen wrote: zhawke is archer. So, zhawke goes on ignore.

No...zhawke is not me, but I am pleased Arlen has me on ignore.

Thanks, Archer, for clearing that up. By the way, from what I've seen of your posts on this site, I consider it a compliment to be "confused" with you.

BearMtnHIB wrote:

What I do dispute is the often times blanket types of assertions and accusations that claim rampant fraud in a program, or similar programs, when there appears to be no verifiable documentation of same.

I'm the one who claims that this welfare state is in the state of "rampant abuse". Why? Because it's absolutely the truth.

Did you read the article I posted a link to? I bet you did not because you have no comment about it.
http://www.salon.com/2010/03/16/hipsters_food_stamps_pinched/

Magida, a 30-year-old art school graduate, had been installing museum exhibits for a living until the recession caused arts funding — and her usual gigs — to dry up. She applied for food stamps last summer, and since then she’s used her $150 in monthly benefits for things like fresh produce, raw honey and fresh-squeezed juices from markets near her house in the neighborhood of Hampden, and soy meat alternatives and gourmet ice cream from a Whole Foods a few miles away.

“I’m eating better than I ever have before,” she told me.

You don't think this is abuse? You and I are coming from 2 totally different viewpoints...... See- I pay for all the food I eat by earning the money for it!

Mak, 31, grew up in Westchester, graduated from the University of Chicago and toiled in publishing in New York during his 20s before moving to Baltimore last year with a meager part-time blogging job and prospects for little else. About half of his friends in Baltimore have been getting food stamps since the economy toppled, so he decided to give it a try; to his delight, he qualified for $200 a month.

“I’m sort of a foodie, and I’m not going to do the ‘living off ramen’ thing,” he said, fondly remembering a recent meal he’d prepared of roasted rabbit with butter, tarragon and sweet potatoes. “I used to think that you could only get processed food and government cheese on food stamps, but it’s great that you can get anything.”

I suppose you don't think this is abuse either? A 31 year old man on food stamps with an entitlement attitude! Now I'm starting to think that zhawke is off her rocker! You think this is acceptable- and I do not.

About half of his friends in Baltimore have been getting food stamps since the economy toppled, so he decided to give it a try; to his delight, he qualified for $200 a month.

You don't think that "half of his friends in Baltimore" is "rampant"? Well I do! Yes- to his "delight" he also qualified for free money. Who turns down free money? You think human nature is somthing to trust and that people are honest? You're out of your mind!

You don't think this free government money discourages people from doing the right thing? I do. You don't think this creates an un-healthy attitude where it's easier to lay back and let the taxpayers support you're lazy ass? I do.

And if you don't think this affects the productivity of our economy- you just don't understand economics at all.

I know (personally) several people on food stamps and subsidized housing. Every single one of them would be doing much more for themselves - except that the welfare state makes it easier for them to stay where they are- unproductive and lazy.

I know a family from Hiwan Country Club where I grew up with 4 daughters. 3 of them are on food stamps and subsidized housing- the 4th lives at home with her parents. Every one of them are fully capable of supporting themselves, but they use the excuse of being single mom's for needing the assistance.

Their father is a millionaire. They were all raised with a silver spoon in their mouth- thinking that they entitled to an easy life that someone else gets to pay for. This is the honest truth! You don't think this is a problem?

The government is the default baby daddy to hundreds of thousands of people like this- and we have conditioned them to care less about their own economic condition and the economic condition of their children because we have made it too easy to leach off the productive working class taxpayers.

I have another friend who got in a fight with her boyfriend- she simply got mad at him and moved out. The next week she applied for food stamps and subsidized housing and was approved immediately- including immediate funds for her child. She did not need the assistance- but the government was all too willing to give it to her.

I also know many single moms who seem to have no problem at all supporting themselves and their children by earning it themselves. Many of them would not even consider asking the taxpayers to be responsible for them. Many of them do not have college degrees- but work in food service or in the many medical offices we have here in town.

Don't accuse me of a lie- there are people who choose to earn their own way- and those who choose to be leaches on society for their entire lives. You are simply dreaming if you think that the government will address the RAMPANT abuse and fraud in our welfare state. They have been working on doing that for decades- and the problem still exists.

The way to help these people is not through government welfare- it's through community charity programs. Programs like this do not force money from taxpayers for lazy people- they work directly with the truely needy and they are responsive to real need. They are also much more effective at identifing real need from "rampant abuse", unlike some of the welfare state supporters on this web site!

And that is the truth!

Just another "blanket" assessment with no definitive proof of, as you put it, RAMPANT abuse. Your definition and mine may not be identical, but, had you comprehended the content of my post, you would have seen that I DO NOT DENY abuse within a system such as ours. I can also illustrate profusely how virtually everyone of the "cases" you listed in your post has a direct and equal opposite in the form of a family and/or individual who used these type(s) of benefits to tide them over until they were able to get back on their feet.

And, yes, I did read the article you provided a link to. As far as I'm concerned, the same applies to your post and link as I said applies to NeptuneChimney's post and link. People who come forward to "flaunt" their abuse(s) of a system meant to help people who really need it need to be investigated and corrective actions need to be taken to correct those abuses.

If, as you suggest, the way to address the "entitlement mentality" is to turn the problem(s) over to "community charity programs", I'd suggest you talk to the people who run those programs and get their take on what it would require for them to gear up to handle the influx they would experience as a result of government benefits completely going away. I've volunteered in those programs. In my experience, these programs also, to some extent, often times "rely" on government subsidies just to exist.

Finally, as far as your last statement:

And that is the truth!

is concerned, I don't believe it IS, in fact, the truth. Rather, I view it as being an "alternative perspective", nothing more.

zhawke,
Do you feed the bears? Do you think providing wild animals with food is immoral and makes them dangerous and changes their natural behavior?

Then I guess we'd better not start a food stamp program for bears... But as irrelevant analogies go, that's cute...