The End of School Gun Free Zones ?

05 Jan 2013 09:55 #11 by The Boss
With all due respect to your parents Bob and all parents, but not having a kid in a public school, I just could not imagine sending my kid to a school that had to have metal detectors or police or where this debate had any real meaning. I understand that people need to make a living and cannot watch their kids all day, but if the risk is any where near the point where we are even talking about this stuff, does that not make a school a "kid free zone", like the middle of the highway and we as parents or the responsible parties must simply find another way to educate them, or another place, where this debate or the risk just seems so distant as to not even take it seriously.

It seems as parents, we must simply find another way to protect our children, if the risk is real, which I am not saying it is, it seems there is actually not time for any political debate or collective action, it seems parents that REALLY believe there is something to be afraid of would keep their kids away from these places and get together with each other and find anther way to get their kids to adulthood. The statistical risk of the type of event that folks are afraid of happening are practically zero and thus that should be the size of the response. If folks think the risk is more like 1% or 10% as folks are making out, I simply cannot believe these folks sent their kids to schools the next day. This would make them awful parents, sending kids right into harms way, because you think they will get better jobs later...if they make it.

This debate is fake and all about feeling good on the couch, feeling like you have good control of your neighbors, not about protecting kids.

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05 Jan 2013 12:02 #12 by ZHawke
Replied by ZHawke on topic The End of School Gun Free Zones ?

on that note wrote: With all due respect to your parents Bob and all parents, but not having a kid in a public school, I just could not imagine sending my kid to a school that had to have metal detectors or police or where this debate had any real meaning. I understand that people need to make a living and cannot watch their kids all day, but if the risk is any where near the point where we are even talking about this stuff, does that not make a school a "kid free zone", like the middle of the highway and we as parents or the responsible parties must simply find another way to educate them, or another place, where this debate or the risk just seems so distant as to not even take it seriously.

It seems as parents, we must simply find another way to protect our children, if the risk is real, which I am not saying it is, it seems there is actually not time for any political debate or collective action, it seems parents that REALLY believe there is something to be afraid of would keep their kids away from these places and get together with each other and find anther way to get their kids to adulthood. The statistical risk of the type of event that folks are afraid of happening are practically zero and thus that should be the size of the response. If folks think the risk is more like 1% or 10% as folks are making out, I simply cannot believe these folks sent their kids to schools the next day. This would make them awful parents, sending kids right into harms way, because you think they will get better jobs later...if they make it.

This debate is fake and all about feeling good on the couch, feeling like you have good control of your neighbors, not about protecting kids.


To a point, on that note, I would agree with you, especially about the "couch" mentality. That's been the case for a very, very long time. Where I tend to have a different view, though, is with regard to the statistical risk analogy. I used to work for an organization that was in denial about the possibility their "features" posed any risk whatsoever to the public. Problem is, the "low probability -- high consequence" reality of the risks posed did not "excuse" them from taking responsibility and doing everything they possibly could to work with the potential human factor to minimize that risk. As long as there is a risk, it must be addressed. The caveat is that mitigation and preparedness efforts will vary depending upon the likelihood of their occurrence and the potential consequences of that occurrence. So, my employer eventually wound up implementing a wide ranging, full spectrum emergency management program that addressed every hazard they could come up, ranking them, and applying appropriate mitigation and preparedness efforts based on those criteria. It is my opinion we should be looking at the issue of school safety from the same perspective. Colorado Senate Bill 08-181 requires every school (not just districts) in Colorado to design, develop, and implement a full spectrum emergency management program using the National Incident Management System and the Incident Command System. The politicians, as usual, provided absolutely no funding whatsoever for this program. So, schools are forced to find resources internally to do so. With current budget cuts on the table, and because of the probability/consequence rationale, I believe many, if not most, schools have "shelved" this effort. And, that is why I'm promoting an "involvement" program on our website. It costs nothing except in terms of devoting time and effort from those "couch potatoes" you mentioned, and might just be able to get something done to enhance safer schools and address the firestorm currently going on regarding guns in schools.

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05 Jan 2013 13:13 #13 by The Viking
Liberal logic again. Criminals are praying for gun free zones! They are safest there and can commit the easiest and most crimes there. And that includes our schools.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dg_AcB ... ata_player
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Been so long since I posted that I can't make the link for youtube work.

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05 Jan 2013 13:27 #14 by ZHawke
Replied by ZHawke on topic The End of School Gun Free Zones ?

The Viking wrote: Liberal logic again. Criminals are praying for gun free zones! They are safest there and can commit the easiest and most crimes there. And that includes our schools.

[youtube]

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Been so long since I posted that I can't make the link for youtube work.


Safer schools isn't a "liberal" or "conservative" thing. It's obviously something every parent has a stake in, every teacher has a stake in, every administrator has a stake in, in fact every student has a stake in. I'd say the link to youtube you provided shows the hypocrisy of your statement that this is "liberal logic". It's exactly the opposite. It's sarcasm directed to "liberals" by "conservatives" implying that gun free zones are ridiculous. The fact that a gun free zone sign is literally no more effective at stopping a crazie from causing harm than a stop sign is at preventing a drunk driver from running it and taking innocent lives in the process has been discussed previously. That is not the "intent" of gun free zones. That's just how some have misinterpreted them.

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05 Jan 2013 14:01 #15 by ZHawke
Replied by ZHawke on topic The End of School Gun Free Zones ?
The Viking: when you say "criminals are praying for gun free zones", do you have any empirical data/statistics to back up that claim? I've seen similar posits many times, but never have I seen anything statistically relevant that would back up that claim. Or, is it just a mindset of those who want to do away with them entirely?

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05 Jan 2013 14:15 #16 by FredHayek
I heard one report the Batman shooter chose that theatre because of their anti-gun policy. He didn't choose closer Theatres without antigun policies. But haven't seen this confirmed.

Thomas Sowell: There are no solutions, just trade-offs.

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05 Jan 2013 14:22 #17 by ZHawke
Replied by ZHawke on topic The End of School Gun Free Zones ?

FredHayek wrote: I heard one report the Batman shooter chose that theatre because of their anti-gun policy. He didn't choose closer Theatres without antigun policies. But haven't seen this confirmed.


I won't disagree with you because there hasn't been any "proof" offered thus far that I'm aware of. I'd be very interested if any empirical statistics and data were actually in existence regarding this issue. Again, from what I'm seeing, gun free zones were intended more to provide a school with legal recourse should there be a violation (cases like unlicensed carry on school grounds, and/or domestic issues specifically come to mind) rather than on a sign posted somewhere outside that it is a gun free zone realistically being able to stop anyone if they wanted to cause harm. I just ran across this web page that defines gun free zones a bit better than anything I've seen in this thread so far. http://definitions.uslegal.com/g/gun-free-zone/

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05 Jan 2013 14:25 #18 by LadyJazzer
"I heard one report..."

"Some people say....."

Yep...Up to your usual standard....

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05 Jan 2013 14:52 #19 by ScienceChic
I just wanted to quote this from the first page, as I think it's a critical point that was made. Instituting or abolishing gun-free zones is not the solution as it doesn't address the problem. Gun free zones were not created in order to create "gun free zones", as ZHawke pointed out (and Viking's silly parody emphasized) - they were meant to provide legal recourse and punishment for breaking the law.

ZHawke wrote: I'll admit, I'm torn on the "Gun Free Zones" issue. That being said, I offer this from a blog written by Jim Wright on what he proposes is a fundamental misunderstanding of the purposes of "Gun Free Zones".

To say that gun free zones have failed shows a profound lack of understanding of what those laws, indeed laws in general, were supposed to do in the first place. Nobody (OK, almost nobody) expected gun free zones to completely prevent gun violence. We expected those laws to give us options and legal recourse in the case of certain events. And they have done exactly that. But nobody (OK, almost nobody) expected them to stop gun violence completely.

Just as the law doesn’t stop crime.

That’s not the law’s primary function.

The primary function of the law is to provide society with legal recourse in the face of antisocial behavior, i.e. behavior that infringes on the rights and property of others or upon the security of the society and its people.

If you don’t have a law that makes a school a gun free zone, then when a kid brings a gun to school with the (maybe) intention of threatening his classmates, even if you catch him before he can use it, law enforcement’s options are limited. The school can (maybe) kick him out for violating a school policy, but the law can’t touch him, not really, unless he violated some local gun ordinance or specifically transmitted a threat. And so he goes home, gets the rest of his mommy’s guns and comes back. But if you have a gun free zone, then by law the cops can arrest him the first time and have him evaluated for potential violence and maybe save your kid’s life. And that has happened hundreds of times since implementation of the Gun Free Zones.

For the full blog post, please visit http://www.stonekettle.com/2012/12/bang-bang-crazy-part-four.html .

To be honest, I've heard just about every argument possible, both pro and con on gun free zones. I don't believe for one second they were ever intended to be any more effective than, let's say, a stop sign in "preventing" a lawbreaker from doing what they do best - breaking the law. Following Mr. Wright's logic would seem to me to be a reasonable approach to the issue - legal recourse. Law enforcement, including School Resource Officers (if the school has one) are exempted from the no carry requirement of gun free zones. The National Association of School Resource Officers put out a press release following the tragedy at Sandy Hook Elementary saying they do not support arming anyone other than fully trained law enforcement personnel:

Q: Should anyone else, other than a police officer, be armed on school property (e.g. school staff, community volunteers, etc. who are not law enforcement officers)?

A: No. NASRO believes that only a fully-trained law enforcement officer should carry a firearm on school property. In addition, law enforcement officers assigned permanently to schools should receive specialized SRO training as soon as possible.

Link: http://www.nasro.org/

They aren't the only law enforcement organization coming out against this concept. There are also other law enforcement that support the possibility.

My point is, elimination of gun free zones, while perhaps sounding good on the face of it, may actually open a Pandora's Box of unintended consequences. If we can't get unanimity from law enforcement on this issue, how will we be able to address the potential problems that could occur if CCW and/or open carry are allowed with no forethought about liability issues of such a policy?

I fully support the School Resource Officer Program. I hold no illusions regarding their ability to reduce the probability of a school shooting to an absolute zero. I believe that's impossible, no matter what we try to do. But I do believe an armed SRO in every school would be a viable deterrent.

And, yes, I am painfully aware that an armed security guard at Columbine High School could not prevent or mitigate the tragedy there. My daughter was one of the kids outside the school critically injured in the first volley of gunfire.

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Cars can be deadly weapons, they can kill both innocent bystanders and its operators. Alcohol can be a deadly weapon in conjunction with vehicle use especially. Most of the time the majority of people operate them responsibly and wisely. We have laws governing their use, and punishments established if you don't and you are caught. That does not make us anti-car, nor anti-alcohol, nor does it make our society worse for having cars, or alcohol, or for having laws that govern them. It is a fluid process that takes involvement and effort by the entire society to determine what is right and wrong, and what punishment is appropriate. We tried banning alcohol, that was a bloody mess, banning cars is silly, and banning guns useless. We don't see people using cars to commit mass murders (except in Deathrace 2000), so how do we get gun ownership to equate to the same use? Regulation or enforcement of existing regulation. In addition with increased mental health assistance and more active involvement by individuals in communities to be alert, aware, involved, patrolling, whatever - that will help.

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05 Jan 2013 14:54 #20 by LadyJazzer

Science Chic wrote:



AMEN!.... :yeahthat: :thumbsup: :like:

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