The End of School Gun Free Zones ?

Like it or not WarrenK, much evil has been done in the name of God. Proclamations of faith are not sufficient, or even desirable. What counts is being a Red Letter Christian. Living in the way Jesus taught, not forcing others to follow your faith against their will. This is not something taught in school, but in the home, by good and loving parents. I do not believe the founders ever meant us to be a theocracy, nor would I want to live in one. Your interpretation of the Bible may be very different than mine, just as mine is very different from the Phelps family.

chickaree wrote: Like it or not WarrenK, much evil has been done in the name of God. Proclamations of faith are not sufficient, or even desirable. What counts is being a Red Letter Christian. Living in the way Jesus taught, not forcing others to follow your faith against their will. This is not something taught in school, but in the home, by good and loving parents. I do not believe the founders ever meant us to be a theocracy, nor would I want to live in one. Your interpretation of the Bible may be very different than mine, just as mine is very different from the Phelps family.

Yes man has done much evil on fellow man in the name of god and for many other reasons. I was in no way asking anyone to follow me, but please follow Jesus. The Bible says it is Jesus' desire for us to go throughout the world and proclaim Him to all nations. I'm eternally grateful someone took the time to do it for me. We all have great freedom in this country at present to worship as we see fit. Acknowledging God outside of the home, and praying to Him anywhere as thanks for His continued blessings on all of us, does not seem to constitute a theocracy.

And yes I would agree this is getting off-topic, and I have no desire to hijack this thread.

Blessings to you all.

Let's arm teachers, right? Simple solution, right?

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/01/06/vermont-teacher-threatens-school-turns-in-bushmaster-rifle-before-being-committed/

Is this the opening of a "Pandora's Box", so to speak, of what we will be looking at if we don't give every option the due consideration they deserve?

ZHawke wrote: Let's arm teachers, right? Simple solution, right?

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/01/06/vermont-teacher-threatens-school-turns-in-bushmaster-rifle-before-being-committed/

Is this the opening of a "Pandora's Box", so to speak, of what we will be looking at if we don't give every option the due consideration they deserve?

Wow... Seems like [sarcasm]a perfectly rational thing to do in schools to me. LaPierre is certainly out-front on such a well-thought-out idea.[/sarcasm]

Yep, and this guy's been released from the hospital. School placed him on admin leave.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/teacher-semi-automatic-rifle-angry-youtube-vids-article-1.1233763

Glad to hear a determination may have been made that he poses no more danger to the school and/or community (sarcasm).

Despite the protestations of WarrenK and others of his ilk, the US Constitution was clearly and unequivocally intended to provide a secular government. Nothing in the Constitution defers to Judeo Christanity, nor to the "divine guidance". Instead it clearly refers that the nation was to be governed in accordance with the desires of the people, instead of the divine guidance that propped up the monarchies in Europe. The preamble of the Constitution makes this clear:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Nothing about using "divine guidance".

The Constitutions also made it very clear that the government was to be secular in specifically prohibiting the use of religion as a test for public office. Then, to clarify this, the 1st Amendment makes it clear that the government is to be secular, that the government will not be involved in establishment of religion. Nor will it prefer one religion over another.


In fact many of the 10 Commandments would violate the US Constitution if the government were to incorporate them.

What WarrenK is advocating is exactly what the founding fathers were trying to prevent.

So what I thought was a possible 'solutions' thread turns back into an anti-gun propaganda movement. :faint:

Feel like a broken record but here goes again: I haven't clicked the links provided there as there seemed to be enough necessary information and reading between the lines anyway, but it definitely sounds like disfunctional individuals are the focal point of the links. Mentioned before how arming a teacher that is comfortable to be armed could be a good thing, I would also readily agree that concealed carry would be the best option as it usually leaves to mystery exactly who is carrying and who is not. Disfunctional individuals do disfunctional things and there again we have the query of personal motives, mental stability, etc., etc. And at this point I feel I'm just wasting time again.

In closing I'll just add that I do hope for safer schools but that the simple fact that broken people exist and perhaps always will. (And the opinion that bad parenting by some is a huge factor definitely holds weight.) That mistakes, even tragic ones will perhaps forever be a possibility in a world where the unpredictable still remains unpredictable. And never should we underestimate the human mind, not only that of the broken, but of the determined. School safety IS very important to me, as I did have one of my two sons in attendance at Platte Canyon H.S. on Sept. 27th 2006. Though I have many friends in local law enforcement, NONE of them brought my son to me, I went and got him.... not like every other parent though. I hiked over 3 miles through the trees and hillside, avoiding any that would possibly have hindered my goal, I got onto school property, past teachers and got to my son. (I should mention I was unarmed, no 'gun-nut' comments necessary on this one.) Once that goal was achieved I let his teachers know he'll be coming home with me, there was no argument. He is now doing very well in the US Army, I'm proud to have been there for him that day, and proud of what he's doing today.

Now granted it could be argued I have the necessary training to do such a thing when others might not, but the simple fact exists that if a parent can walk onto school grounds during a bad situation, the whole "lock down" theory doesn't exactly hold water now either does it? The school was not exactly 'safe' that day. I could have been anyone walking out of the trees and right up to the students couldn't I? No one would have been able to stop me, and should the school be blamed? Should LE be blamed? Again I'd say "no".

Things happen, sometimes good, sometimes bad. We can do our best to prepare for what we anticipate as the worst, but even that might not be enough in some situations. We have to try... actually YOU all have to try. Because as this turns into an anti-gun sentiment, I consider the fact that the very purpose I'm trying to assist in, could be the very one that forces me to become an outlaw of sorts. So this is where I simply wish you all well in your endevours and take my leave. Good luck, and be well.


Badger

Well, Badger, I'm sorry you took my posts to be anti-gun (if, in fact, that is what you were directing your post to). That simply is not the issue for me. The issue is whether or not to arm teachers and the possible Pandora's Box that may open if even one "ill" from that box isn't considered in a school safety discussion.

Your actions to get to your Son, notwithstanding, our personal experience with this tragedy was from a perspective of trying to calm other very distraught parents down while simultaneously watching SWAT vehicles from JeffCo pass by on 285 toward PCHS. Public Information dissemination was horrible even given the "lessons learned" from the tragedy at CHS. Since the tragedy at PCHS, the Keyes have been instrumental in advocating for "Standard Response Protocols". They're listed on the Keyes' website The I Love U Guys Foundation. As we've previously discussed, no single solution, by itself, is "the" answer. It must be a combination. I just feel the example I provided of this teacher in Vermont is a red flag to consider all things when making decisions on school safety.

Regards.
ZHawke

Edited to add: I could, and should, have been more tactful in my presentation regarding the issue of this Vermont teacher. It wan't meant to be anti-gun. Rather, it was meant to raise questions about the simplistic approach some appear to want to take regarding arming teachers. The point I so tactlessly was trying to make is that everything must be considered when making crucial decisions about how to enhance safer schools. As many questions as possible must be raised, and every single one of them must be considered, not the least of which may be the possibility a teacher could go off on other teachers, students, and administrators. Liability issues abound, as well. We live in a "litigious" world, of that there really can be no doubt. In the event an armed teacher does go off, what liability issues does that present? Same with allowing CCW and/or open carry on school campuses.

Again, I apologize for giving the wrong impression in my previous post. We could all benefit from working together to try to find a viable, workable solution to this problem (school safety).

ZHawke

Stanley McChrystal: Gun Control Requires 'Serious Action' (VIDEO)

Retired Gen. Stanley McChrystal came out in favor of gun control restrictions in a Tuesday morning appearance on MSNBC's "Morning Joe."

"I spent a career carrying typically either a M16, and later a M4 carbine," he said. "And a M4 carbine fires a .223 caliber round, which is 5.56 millimeters, at about 3,000 feet per second. When it hits a human body, the effects are devastating. It's designed to do that. That's what our soldiers ought to carry."

Said McChrystal, "I personally don't think there's any need for that kind of weaponry on the streets and particularly around the schools in America. I believe that we've got to take a serious look -- I understand everybody's desire to have whatever they want -- but we have to protect our children and our police and we have to protect our population. And I think we have to take a very mature look at that."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/0 ... 31063.html

A voice of reason...Even if he did get himself canned for dissing the civilian leadership...

McChrystal? I knew there was a reason why America isn't a military dictatorship.

Some of those generals are nuts.