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The End of School Gun Free Zones ?
- ZHawke
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05 Jan 2013 16:57 #31
by ZHawke
Sadly, I'd have to agree that many hold the perspective that gun free zones are magnets for mayhem. I just don't know that that perspective is actually valid, or if it's just an opinion/view we've each taken on as a result of the tragedies that have occurred. If anyone anywhere has any factual empirical data on whether gun free zones are, in fact, a magnet for these kinds of events, please provide sources. I'm not asking for this type of information out of any kind of contrariness whatsoever. I genuinely would love to be able to put to rest arguments on both sides of this issue regardless of what those results entail.
Metal detectors, security cameras, computer systems, etc., are all part of the "hardware" factor, and they are a start. Historically, the major emphasis has always been on these responses given a tragedy. Problem is, they don't always go to the "root" of the problem. There's also the "software" and "warmware" factors, as well. In my opinion, we need to address all three.
I've posted previously a suggestion to Google "The Ambulance in the Valley", a poem written by Josef Malins in 1895 that still has value today when discussing these type of issues.
Replied by ZHawke on topic The End of School Gun Free Zones ?
BadgerKustoms wrote:
ZHawke wrote: Here's something to ponder: given all the discussion raging everywhere regarding the "elimination of gun free zones", why don't we consider focusing on what could be done to enhance their effectiveness instead?
I can remember the first time I saw a "Gun Free Zone" sign and remember quietly thinking to myself how such a sign might seem like a beacon of hope to someone planning catastrophe. As it turned out, I was eventually and sadly correct on this. But thinking objectively I'd say that to increase effectiveness obviously certain measures must be taken. Can't exactly walk into a courtroom carrying, so I'd suggest metal detectors. (And although I know the counter-point to this, I'd like to say that when I attended school in Florida in the late 80s we did actually have metal detectors, and it really didn't seem to be much of an issue at all. Wasn't a detractor to our "being kids" state of mind.) So that's one possibility.
Sadly, I'd have to agree that many hold the perspective that gun free zones are magnets for mayhem. I just don't know that that perspective is actually valid, or if it's just an opinion/view we've each taken on as a result of the tragedies that have occurred. If anyone anywhere has any factual empirical data on whether gun free zones are, in fact, a magnet for these kinds of events, please provide sources. I'm not asking for this type of information out of any kind of contrariness whatsoever. I genuinely would love to be able to put to rest arguments on both sides of this issue regardless of what those results entail.
Metal detectors, security cameras, computer systems, etc., are all part of the "hardware" factor, and they are a start. Historically, the major emphasis has always been on these responses given a tragedy. Problem is, they don't always go to the "root" of the problem. There's also the "software" and "warmware" factors, as well. In my opinion, we need to address all three.
I've posted previously a suggestion to Google "The Ambulance in the Valley", a poem written by Josef Malins in 1895 that still has value today when discussing these type of issues.
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- BadgerKustoms
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05 Jan 2013 17:36 #32
by BadgerKustoms
I might be wrong on this Z, but aren't the Gun Free Zones relatively a new thing? (Early 2000s?) and if that is the case, its quite possible that such data might not yet exist and the 'trend' we're seeing could potentially be on the rise. Certainly hope I'd be wrong about that though.
My thoughts when I first saw such a sign were not actually based on any incident, (and not familiar if there were any at the time of the introduction of them.) it was more/less based on just the words themselves and me thinking that if someone really wanted to do bad things, this would be the place to start because the sign sort of says there will be little, if any resistance. It was just my opinion, but one I still think holds a bit of validity today.
Badger
Replied by BadgerKustoms on topic The End of School Gun Free Zones ?
ZHawke wrote: If anyone anywhere has any factual empirical data on whether gun free zones are, in fact, a magnet for these kinds of events, please provide sources.
I might be wrong on this Z, but aren't the Gun Free Zones relatively a new thing? (Early 2000s?) and if that is the case, its quite possible that such data might not yet exist and the 'trend' we're seeing could potentially be on the rise. Certainly hope I'd be wrong about that though.
My thoughts when I first saw such a sign were not actually based on any incident, (and not familiar if there were any at the time of the introduction of them.) it was more/less based on just the words themselves and me thinking that if someone really wanted to do bad things, this would be the place to start because the sign sort of says there will be little, if any resistance. It was just my opinion, but one I still think holds a bit of validity today.
Badger
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- chickaree
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05 Jan 2013 17:41 #33
by chickaree
Replied by chickaree on topic The End of School Gun Free Zones ?
I believe someone planning an action like this is not planning for their survival. It is an elaborate suicide plot designed to result in their immortality through infamy. They will neither be attracted nor deterred by the presence of guns. The guns themselves are merely tools, not a cause nor a cure.
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- ZHawke
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05 Jan 2013 17:46 #34
by ZHawke
Don't disagree with you, but I believe the original law was passed sometime in the early 1990's ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Free_School_Zones_Act_of_1990 ). If I'm not mistaken, it was challenged and found to be unconstitutional in its original form, and then repassed by Congress and signed by the president with few, if any major revisions. It has since not been brought up for further review by SCOTUS to my knowledge. So, it's been around for awhile. And, on the face of it, I'd also agree with your initial assessment regarding what a sign like that actually says and/or does. But the fact remains the intent of the law, from what I understand, is to look beyond those "stop sign" comparisons and get into more of a "legal recourse" perspective from what I'm seeing. I guess I'd like to see something that changes the terminology on those signs to something else, but I have no idea what.
Replied by ZHawke on topic The End of School Gun Free Zones ?
BadgerKustoms wrote:
ZHawke wrote: If anyone anywhere has any factual empirical data on whether gun free zones are, in fact, a magnet for these kinds of events, please provide sources.
I might be wrong on this Z, but aren't the Gun Free Zones relatively a new thing? (Early 2000s?) and if that is the case, its quite possible that such data might not yet exist and the 'trend' we're seeing could potentially be on the rise. Certainly hope I'd be wrong about that though.
My thoughts when I first saw such a sign were not actually based on any incident, (and not familiar if there were any at the time of the introduction of them.) it was more/less based on just the words themselves and me thinking that if someone really wanted to do bad things, this would be the place to start because the sign sort of says there will be little, if any resistance. It was just my opinion, but one I still think holds a bit of validity today.
Badger
Don't disagree with you, but I believe the original law was passed sometime in the early 1990's ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Free_School_Zones_Act_of_1990 ). If I'm not mistaken, it was challenged and found to be unconstitutional in its original form, and then repassed by Congress and signed by the president with few, if any major revisions. It has since not been brought up for further review by SCOTUS to my knowledge. So, it's been around for awhile. And, on the face of it, I'd also agree with your initial assessment regarding what a sign like that actually says and/or does. But the fact remains the intent of the law, from what I understand, is to look beyond those "stop sign" comparisons and get into more of a "legal recourse" perspective from what I'm seeing. I guess I'd like to see something that changes the terminology on those signs to something else, but I have no idea what.
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- ZHawke
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05 Jan 2013 17:47 #35
by ZHawke
Not always. The Aurora theater shooting comes immediately to mind. It happens more often than not, of that there can be no denial, but not always.
Replied by ZHawke on topic The End of School Gun Free Zones ?
chickaree wrote: I believe someone planning an action like this is not planning for their survival. It is an elaborate suicide plot designed to result in their immortality through infamy. They will neither be attracted nor deterred by the presence of guns. The guns themselves are merely tools, not a cause nor a cure.
Not always. The Aurora theater shooting comes immediately to mind. It happens more often than not, of that there can be no denial, but not always.
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- ScienceChic
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05 Jan 2013 18:12 #36
by ScienceChic
I think blaming things like this happening in places being "gun free zones" is the wrong focus - the guy in Connecticut, if media reports can be trusted so my following conclusion is based on sound, albeit limited, information, was mentally unstable - he targeted his mother first, then her former classroom of children - he obviously had issues with jealousy (her time taken away by children that she loved other than him??), insecurity, and tons of anger. Plus, he seemed to want to go out in a blaze of glory shot either by himself or LE - what better way to go down in history than to kill those who are most innocent, whose deaths would be most abhorred, and get the most attention from the media?
Timothy McVeigh had a grudge against the US Gov't, he didn't care that there were kids in a daycare inside the federal building.
Many of the other recent shootings have been committed by fellow students - they are going after those with whom they interact and have felt slighted by, building anger and frustration to a breaking point rather than getting adequate help.
Schools aren't targeted because they are gun-free zones, they are merely the source of pain for the perpetrators, or the tool for gaining infamy in the minds of the disturbed. Does having trained personnel on site who are armed help deter people, very possibly. Will it solve the problem of people wanting to commit these kinds of atrocities? No. You need to help those people before they get to that point, not stop them after they've started firing bullets.
JMO
"Now, more than ever, the illusions of division threaten our very existence. We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another as if we were one single tribe.” -King T'Challa, Black Panther
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. ~Winston Churchill
Replied by ScienceChic on topic The End of School Gun Free Zones ?
I'm sorry WarrenK, but I have to disagree with this as well. God was always meant to be taught at home in this country, and it's the parents' responsibility to teach that - not schools. More importantly, I don't believe a lack of believing in a god has anything to do with behaving as a moral, responsible person. I am agnostic and how I treat others is based on the immediate present and short future - I don't know if there's an afterlife or not, but I have little desire to cause harm to others because this might be our only life. Refusing to contribute to someone's pain in our short life spans is an easy and sufficient deterrent because I do believe in karma, or that we reap what we sow.WarrenK wrote: Sorry, God (at least the God of the Bible) did none of these things, nor is He responsible for the evil attributed to Him in these statements. If you doubt this then you need to really read what His Word says. Man did and continues to do these things, and sometimes becomes such an influence for evil that God decides enough is enough.
What taking God out of the schools did was remove moral and civil guidance and allow relativism to take hold. Remove absolute truth and anything goes. Remove a positive, Holy set of rules and it creates a society where people feel its just fine to do unto others as they see fit. Similar to the Supreme Court being unable to define pornography and opening the flood gates for that negative influence on our population. Similar to the influence FPS games have on the minds of the youth. God in schools set the framework for a society where morality and civility were respected, even if not fully followed. If you read the works of Marx, Lenin, or Hitler it is said that in order to control the masses you need to first remove any measure of absolute truth so as to allow them to be swayed as desired. In order to make truth relative and malleable you have to first remove absolute truth.
Only God has the ability to change a heart and set one on the right path. Take Him out of life and we loose guidance beyond "that's how I feel." Without God we have no absolute truth, we have only our personal warped viewpoint. It isn't what we often want to hear so as to feel good, but its God's truth.
Blessings,
I think blaming things like this happening in places being "gun free zones" is the wrong focus - the guy in Connecticut, if media reports can be trusted so my following conclusion is based on sound, albeit limited, information, was mentally unstable - he targeted his mother first, then her former classroom of children - he obviously had issues with jealousy (her time taken away by children that she loved other than him??), insecurity, and tons of anger. Plus, he seemed to want to go out in a blaze of glory shot either by himself or LE - what better way to go down in history than to kill those who are most innocent, whose deaths would be most abhorred, and get the most attention from the media?
Timothy McVeigh had a grudge against the US Gov't, he didn't care that there were kids in a daycare inside the federal building.
Many of the other recent shootings have been committed by fellow students - they are going after those with whom they interact and have felt slighted by, building anger and frustration to a breaking point rather than getting adequate help.
Schools aren't targeted because they are gun-free zones, they are merely the source of pain for the perpetrators, or the tool for gaining infamy in the minds of the disturbed. Does having trained personnel on site who are armed help deter people, very possibly. Will it solve the problem of people wanting to commit these kinds of atrocities? No. You need to help those people before they get to that point, not stop them after they've started firing bullets.
JMO
"Now, more than ever, the illusions of division threaten our very existence. We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another as if we were one single tribe.” -King T'Challa, Black Panther
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. ~Winston Churchill
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- BadgerKustoms
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05 Jan 2013 19:32 #37
by BadgerKustoms
Have to agree here. Its easy to make the mistake of 'dismissal', in which we focus on the "how"... and not the "why". "How could someone shoot children?" A question many of us ask but as it turns out, its the wrong question to ask. "Why?" seems to be the correct one.
There was indeed motive/directive and its in remembering that, I find myself realizing that in the Sandy Hook scenario, the "Gun Free Zone" has nothing to do with it because the motive is driven much deeper than that. Agreed, it takes a very unstable (and in my humble opinion very weak) minded individual to commit such an act. (The Gun Free Zone in reference to the Aurora theatre however might be a factor, but time will tell on this as proceedings continue.)
It's reasons like this that render the "Gun Free Zone" irrelevant no matter what, and it would seem the 'solution' resides in increased security measures when/where applicable. Be it personnel, cameras, hi-tech, low-tech, detection equip, etc. Again, all for a district to decide upon based on budget, etc.
Badger
Replied by BadgerKustoms on topic The End of School Gun Free Zones ?
Science Chic wrote: Schools aren't targeted because they are gun-free zones, they are merely the source of pain for the perpetrators, or the tool for gaining infamy in the minds of the disturbed.
Have to agree here. Its easy to make the mistake of 'dismissal', in which we focus on the "how"... and not the "why". "How could someone shoot children?" A question many of us ask but as it turns out, its the wrong question to ask. "Why?" seems to be the correct one.
There was indeed motive/directive and its in remembering that, I find myself realizing that in the Sandy Hook scenario, the "Gun Free Zone" has nothing to do with it because the motive is driven much deeper than that. Agreed, it takes a very unstable (and in my humble opinion very weak) minded individual to commit such an act. (The Gun Free Zone in reference to the Aurora theatre however might be a factor, but time will tell on this as proceedings continue.)
It's reasons like this that render the "Gun Free Zone" irrelevant no matter what, and it would seem the 'solution' resides in increased security measures when/where applicable. Be it personnel, cameras, hi-tech, low-tech, detection equip, etc. Again, all for a district to decide upon based on budget, etc.
Badger
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- WarrenK
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05 Jan 2013 19:34 - 05 Jan 2013 19:36 #38
by WarrenK
As Water Reflects A Face, So The Heart Reflects The Person
Proverbs 27:19
Replied by WarrenK on topic The End of School Gun Free Zones ?
If you read the words of the founding fathers (at the risk of stirring up the cynical founding father comments) and the early founders of this country that preceded them, the United States was founded on Judeo Christian beliefs. We can deny it today, and call it whatever you want, but those are the facts. For those of other faiths, be blessed you live in a country that, as of today anyway, still gives everyone the liberty to worship as they want. If you deny these founding principles you are free to contribute to the stone work efforts to remove God from all the inscriptions on public buildings.
Christianity was never meant to be separate from the secular parts of one's life. The minute you say "religion is here, but not there" you reduce God to human terms and say that You are equal to Him in deciding what influence He should have. Yes Christianity was and still should be taught at home, but also recognized in Schools, work places, government and private lives as well. God has greatly blessed this country over the many years and loves each and every one of us enough to continue to bless us, or to allow us the free will to deny Him. If we choose to do the latter its to our peril not His, although it breaks His heart. Those of us who are parents can appreciate this if you have a wayward child that you still love, but knowing they are headed down a wrong road breaks your heart.
Most folks are truly good people and treat others in an appropriate good way. My earlier efforts were to say that while this is noble, in truth without God there is no measurement for "good" as it is totally subjective. In my own life I spent 50+ years deceived I was a good person until I was finally able to realize that by God's standards I was anything but. By His grace He put a new heart in me and gave me a new song to sing. Blessed be His Name.
Evil has always and will always be with us. We should however become knowledgeable of evil and aware that it never has nor never will be caused by, nor can it be attributed to God. You cannot legislate morality or civility, but God can put both solidly into your heart.
Christianity was never meant to be separate from the secular parts of one's life. The minute you say "religion is here, but not there" you reduce God to human terms and say that You are equal to Him in deciding what influence He should have. Yes Christianity was and still should be taught at home, but also recognized in Schools, work places, government and private lives as well. God has greatly blessed this country over the many years and loves each and every one of us enough to continue to bless us, or to allow us the free will to deny Him. If we choose to do the latter its to our peril not His, although it breaks His heart. Those of us who are parents can appreciate this if you have a wayward child that you still love, but knowing they are headed down a wrong road breaks your heart.
Most folks are truly good people and treat others in an appropriate good way. My earlier efforts were to say that while this is noble, in truth without God there is no measurement for "good" as it is totally subjective. In my own life I spent 50+ years deceived I was a good person until I was finally able to realize that by God's standards I was anything but. By His grace He put a new heart in me and gave me a new song to sing. Blessed be His Name.
Evil has always and will always be with us. We should however become knowledgeable of evil and aware that it never has nor never will be caused by, nor can it be attributed to God. You cannot legislate morality or civility, but God can put both solidly into your heart.
As Water Reflects A Face, So The Heart Reflects The Person
Proverbs 27:19
Last edit: 05 Jan 2013 19:36 by WarrenK.
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- chickaree
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05 Jan 2013 19:35 #39
by chickaree
Precisely. Not glamorous, but effective.
Replied by chickaree on topic The End of School Gun Free Zones ?
BadgerKustoms wrote:
Science Chic wrote: Schools aren't targeted because they are gun-free zones, they are merely the source of pain for the perpetrators, or the tool for gaining infamy in the minds of the disturbed.
Have to agree here. Its easy to make the mistake of 'dismissal', in which we focus on the "how"... and not the "why". "How could someone shoot children?" A question many of us ask but as it turns out, its the wrong question to ask. "Why?" seems to be the correct one.
There was indeed motive/directive and its in remembering that, I find myself realizing that in the Sandy Hook scenario, the "Gun Free Zone" has nothing to do with it because the motive is driven much deeper than that. Agreed, it takes a very unstable (and in my humble opinion very weak) minded individual to commit such an act. (The Gun Free Zone in reference to the Aurora theatre however might be a factor, but time will tell on this as proceedings continue.)
It's reasons like this that render the "Gun Free Zone" irrelevant no matter what, and it would seem the 'solution' resides in increased security measures when/where applicable. Be it personnel, cameras, hi-tech, low-tech, detection equip, etc. Again, all for a district to decide upon based on budget, etc.
Badger
Precisely. Not glamorous, but effective.
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- BadgerKustoms
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05 Jan 2013 19:54 #40
by BadgerKustoms
Replied by BadgerKustoms on topic The End of School Gun Free Zones ?
Warren your post seems to be drifting toward the zone of "off topic" in my humble opinion. Maybe even best to be started as its own topic, but we'll see.
I will say this however, there are those of us that greatly admire America's founding fathers, (some might say, worship even if its not an offensive phrasing. Or even if it is...) and there are also those of us that would give our very lives for the beliefs that this country was built upon. Granted those solitary beliefs have little to do with religion and more/less the interaction between government and people. Never forget that those who continue to serve this country's best interests, hold a variety of faiths and religions, and for some none at all. There are those individuals who fight, serve and have seen great horrors in their lifetimes and not once considered kneeling before a cross, but held their heads high in reverence of their gods but more importantly.... their country, this country. Don't forget, this country "is made, for you AND me".
YOUR god can do a great many things for YOU Warren, and for that, I raise a glass and say "Hail" with a smile. Your god should be honored there are those who would float off subject to praise thoughts of him/her such as yourself. Again, Hail. But I encourage you to step down from your altar as it were, and join us in the contemplation of solutions... for I suspect your god may well praise you in that endevour even more. By all means start an independent thread and tell us of your god, but in this one, we're discussing Gun Free Zones... not God free ones.
Badger (edit to add: I say this with heart felt enthusiasm and great respect. The intent is not to offend, as religion can be a sensitive topic for many, but to return to the general topic of "The End of School Gun Free Zones". Praise be to all of your god/gods, but let us stay focused here please and thank you.)
I will say this however, there are those of us that greatly admire America's founding fathers, (some might say, worship even if its not an offensive phrasing. Or even if it is...) and there are also those of us that would give our very lives for the beliefs that this country was built upon. Granted those solitary beliefs have little to do with religion and more/less the interaction between government and people. Never forget that those who continue to serve this country's best interests, hold a variety of faiths and religions, and for some none at all. There are those individuals who fight, serve and have seen great horrors in their lifetimes and not once considered kneeling before a cross, but held their heads high in reverence of their gods but more importantly.... their country, this country. Don't forget, this country "is made, for you AND me".
YOUR god can do a great many things for YOU Warren, and for that, I raise a glass and say "Hail" with a smile. Your god should be honored there are those who would float off subject to praise thoughts of him/her such as yourself. Again, Hail. But I encourage you to step down from your altar as it were, and join us in the contemplation of solutions... for I suspect your god may well praise you in that endevour even more. By all means start an independent thread and tell us of your god, but in this one, we're discussing Gun Free Zones... not God free ones.
Badger (edit to add: I say this with heart felt enthusiasm and great respect. The intent is not to offend, as religion can be a sensitive topic for many, but to return to the general topic of "The End of School Gun Free Zones". Praise be to all of your god/gods, but let us stay focused here please and thank you.)
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