Collateral Damages?

This is actually pretty eye opening from my perspective:

Iraqi Doctors Call Depleted Uranium Use "Genocide"

www.truth-out.org/news/item/26703-iraqi-...uranium-use-genocide

There are some who would dismiss the data out of hand. I must admit my initial reaction was one of skepticism especially given the radon threat here in this country a lot of homeowners face, but do little, if anything, to address.

Then I got to thinking about the "global" perspective of why ISIS is gaining such a foothold as did Al Quaeda (sp?) before them. Some are saying the U.S. breeds terrorism wherever we go by the actions we almost always seem to take. So, even if the threat to humans is insignificant in reality, the perception many in the Middle East toward the U.S. as being to blame for it (accurate or not) isn't something I feel we should dismiss out of hand.

Here are a couple of other sites that lend some credence to the Truthout article:

www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/mar...ontamination-spreads
www.gulfwarvets.com/du_greatest_enviomental_horrors.htm

Just on an FYI basis.

Well Z apparently one of the PC mods is on the rag so I thought I would take it here. Your question was "So, BB, do you actually believe an ideology can be "killed"?

www.pinecam.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=51...2&p=1597492#p1597492

I suspect that is from a different sidebar conversation you were having with PrintSmith until it was locked. It has nothing that I can discern with my post to you but just this once I think so. Met any druids recently?

My comment was directed to your comment regarding the Koch brothers.

Deflect not lest you be deflected.

BlazerBob wrote: Well Z apparently one of the PC mods is on the rag so I thought I would take it here. Your question was "So, BB, do you actually believe an ideology can be "killed"?

www.pinecam.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=51...2&p=1597492#p1597492

I suspect that is from a different sidebar conversation you were having with PrintSmith until it was locked. It has nothing that I can discern with my post to you but just this once I think so. Met any druids recently?

My comment was directed to your comment regarding the Koch brothers.

Deflect not lest you be deflected.

Agreed, BB. I must admit I was a little surprised by that thread being locked. In fact, I was in the process of preparing a response for you when I was notified the thread had been locked. I don't believe the question I asked of you regarding killing an ideology was off topic at all, especially given the OP of the thread and the discussion regarding Islamic ideology. Oh, well.

All that being said, druids have nothing to do with the discussion from my perspective. The Vietnam War was a perfect example of how an ideology, in that instance the ideology of "Communism", cannot be killed. Nor can Nazism or Fascism in the real world. The relevance to the discussion involved the issue of radical Jihadism. I don't think it can be eradicated either. But, as with other ideologies, it may be relegated to the so-called fringe, as have both Nazism and Fascism. I'm not aware of too many people that would deny these fringe elements exist, but I also believe not many people put too much credence into their respective "movements" if one wants to call them that. Problems arise with them when they do something that attracts attention. Witness the recent controversy in a small town near where I grew up in the state of North Dakota where a white supremacist with ties to the Aryan Brotherhood tried to turn that quiet town into a stronghold for people with similar views to his. The resulting brouhaha in the state was something to behold for those of us with ties to the area.

With regard to the Koch brothers, I've seen ample evidence in multiple publications of their oligarchical tendencies bordering on Fascism. Whether or not you would agree those publications have any credibility is, as is often the case, open to personal interpretation. Koch Industries, and by extension the brothers themselves, advocate no government regulations on their activities and ventures, the environment be damned. That, in a nutshell, is where I have a problem with them in general.

Please don't misunderstand me. You mentioned a free economy, if memory serves. I agree a free economy is the way to go - with appropriate restrictions in place to help ensure those at the top of the proverbial food chain do not abuse their position at the expense of those who actually keep those industries afloat. I'm not so naive as to think that Unions are a panacea. Nor am I so naive as to believe industry tycoons, like the Koch brothers, will willingly do what's right for their workers without some kind of hammer being held over their heads. That's just the way it is. The difficulty is in drawing a line at some point that accommodates the best interests of all concerned - not an easy task.

I am no expert but I think druids had an ideology. I do not know about others but I will comment on a thread when I am in the mood and something strikes me. I do not review the thread looking for nuances, sidebars or try to determine what is the original topic.

Whether an ideology can be killed I have no interest in commenting on. I was commenting on your Koch comment which is why I deleted the rest with ...'s to indicate that there was other material, not an attempt to take it out of context.

you said "With regard to the Koch brothers, I've seen ample evidence in multiple publications of their oligarchical tendencies bordering on Fascism."

What that says t o me is that you spend too much time reading left wing propaganda. I expect you think something similar of my opinions so this might be a good place to agree to disagree.

Bob

PS I generally enjoy reading your comments and ability to post without bile or vitral. BZ

ZHawke wrote:

BlazerBob wrote: Well Z apparently one of the PC mods is on the rag so I thought I would take it here. Your question was "So, BB, do you actually believe an ideology can be "killed"?

www.pinecam.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=51...2&p=1597492#p1597492

I suspect that is from a different sidebar conversation you were having with PrintSmith until it was locked. It has nothing that I can discern with my post to you but just this once I think so. Met any druids recently?

My comment was directed to your comment regarding the Koch brothers.

Deflect not lest you be deflected.

Agreed, BB. I must admit I was a little surprised by that thread being locked. In fact, I was in the process of preparing a response for you when I was notified the thread had been locked. I don't believe the question I asked of you regarding killing an ideology was off topic at all, especially given the OP of the thread and the discussion regarding Islamic ideology. Oh, well.

All that being said, druids have nothing to do with the discussion from my perspective. The Vietnam War was a perfect example of how an ideology, in that instance the ideology of "Communism", cannot be killed. Nor can Nazism or Fascism in the real world. The relevance to the discussion involved the issue of radical Jihadism. I don't think it can be eradicated either. But, as with other ideologies, it may be relegated to the so-called fringe, as have both Nazism and Fascism. I'm not aware of too many people that would deny these fringe elements exist, but I also believe not many people put too much credence into their respective "movements" if one wants to call them that. Problems arise with them when they do something that attracts attention. Witness the recent controversy in a small town near where I grew up in the state of North Dakota where a white supremacist with ties to the Aryan Brotherhood tried to turn that quiet town into a stronghold for people with similar views to his. The resulting brouhaha in the state was something to behold for those of us with ties to the area.

With regard to the Koch brothers, I've seen ample evidence in multiple publications of their oligarchical tendencies bordering on Fascism. Whether or not you would agree those publications have any credibility is, as is often the case, open to personal interpretation. Koch Industries, and by extension the brothers themselves, advocate no government regulations on their activities and ventures, the environment be damned. That, in a nutshell, is where I have a problem with them in general.

Please don't misunderstand me. You mentioned a free economy, if memory serves. I agree a free economy is the way to go - with appropriate restrictions in place to help ensure those at the top of the proverbial food chain do not abuse their position at the expense of those who actually keep those industries afloat. I'm not so naive as to think that Unions are a panacea. Nor am I so naive as to believe industry tycoons, like the Koch brothers, will willingly do what's right for their workers without some kind of hammer being held over their heads. That's just the way it is. The difficulty is in drawing a line at some point that accommodates the best interests of all concerned - not an easy task.

OH. Now that we are here I guess being on topic is not an issue but for the record war has always had collateral damage. DU could be one of them but where are you trying to go with it?

Thanks, and I do mean that.

I've been reading up on the Kochs while waiting for a response from you. Perhaps I do, in fact, spend more time than I should reading left leaning publications. However, I've found they usually provide links embedded into their articles to other sources of information that most often times are more "credible", if you want to call it that. The more conservative articles I've gone to haven't been that accommodating, and that's one of the reasons for posting what I do.

Here's the article on the Kochs I've been reviewing: mediamatters.org/research/2014/08/27/myt...koch-brothers/200570

I know it's Media Matters, a left leaning publication, but it goes into a lot of detail and provides citations as to where they got the information from. Those sources vary from Forbes to Washington Post to the New York Times and more. We may ultimately wind up agreeing to disagree. But it won't be for lack of trying from my perspective.

BlazerBob wrote: OH. Now that we are here I guess being on topic is not an issue but for the record war has always had collateral damage. DU could be one of them but where are you trying to go with it?

You're right about collateral damage during times of war. Part of my personal issue is with regard to the order of magnitude of those collateral damages and the resulting perceptions of the population being affected. I've heard from some on both sides of the DU issue. To me, the danger is more in the perception of it being a danger than the possible reality of same. That's not to say it doesn't exist.

The fact the doctors interviewed in the OP perceive the U.S. to be at blame for birth defects and increased rates of cancer they are treating is something we really should be paying attention to. There are many who believe the U.S. is breeding Jihadist extremist terrorists by continuing our policy of warfare, whether that be drone strikes, air strikes, or boots on the ground. Add to that the divisions within Iraq of Sunni, Shia, Kurdish, etal, religious affiliations, none of which appear to be able to get along with each other except under the iron fisted rule of a tyrant like Saddam Hussein, and you have a recipe for disaster the U.S. intelligence community should arguably have been able to foresee before sending in troops in the first place.

Occupation of a nation, albeit divided ethnically and from a religious perspective, as fiercely nationalistic, both from a religious and secular perspective, will always be fraught with risks. If we, as a nation, might be able to do something to minimize, or eliminate, the perception people in Iraq have of us as conquerors and occupiers, then that's the direction I believe we should be trying to go in. But, that's just me.