Do you Think Teachers Unions should be disbanded?

archer wrote:

outdoor338 wrote: Great point Renegade, that was a great doc "Waiting for superman" is a must watch..both dems and republcans like it..try watching it archer, then report back to us.

Is it available on-line?, we dont have a vcr...or dvd player....or anything like that here in Az.

Do you have a DVD drive in your computer?

If not, you can go to Amazon.com, go to Videos on Demand, Waiting for Superman. Watch it...I'd love to hear what you have to say afterwards.

towermonkey wrote: Its the fact that the teachers are required to teach to the lowest common denominator. They don't introduce new ideas until they feel the "entire" class in ready. This leads to a lot of boredom on the part of most of the kids and a complete wast of time for most of the school days when the kids are there. They probably learn more on holiday days like President's day from their parents than they doe from the watered down crap that is "taught" in schools today.

TM you have a vary valid point.

The teachers union has nothing to do with education of our kids, its about pay, benefits, tenure, and how to theive even more from the taxpayer.

1. Teachers, depending on the school district, are paid for about 9.5 months, so take that into account as you determine their salaries.

2. They must renew their certification every three years, at their own expense and it is NOT tax-deductable.

3. There is a learning methodology called "mastery learning." A student takes the learning module and must pass before moving on to the next learning module. The teachers don't control what and how they teach - admin controls that. Thus, those "bored" students who drop out of school could have been more involved if the Administration that drives what and how something is taught would get off their lazy butts and have their teachers teach to the student, not the tests they are required to teach to.

4. Before unions, teachers taught, stayed after school for various activities, graded papers at night, met with parents in the evenings, participated in weekend events, alll with no additional pay (unless they were coaches - great atheletic benefits). In other words, they didn't have personal lives.

Unions brought benefits to people who weren't in unions as well, such as 40 hr. work weeks and workman's comp when injured on the job. The number of men killed and maimed working for the railroads and mines without compensation was astronomical.

Good info on the pay scale...That means they really make 26% more if they work those other 2.5 months, where there are lots of tutoring jobs available.

Nobody argues that unions once were a needed part of society. They have just outlived their welcome. They have become a giant funding mechanism for politicians. No longer is performance in any way related to pay and benefits. In the case of teachers, the unions don't care at all about the students, only about the fees the teachers pay to the union big-wigs.

One of the old union presidents put it well.

Former American Federation of Teachers President Al Shanker put it bluntly: “When school children start paying union dues, that’s when I’ll start representing the interests of school children.”

2wlady wrote: 4. Before unions, teachers taught, stayed after school for various activities, graded papers at night, met with parents in the evenings, participated in weekend events, alll with no additional pay (unless they were coaches - great atheletic benefits). In other words, they didn't have personal lives.

Welcome to the real world. I work whatever hours are needed, nights, weekends, etc. I meet with clients as needed on their schedule. I also don't get all those "teacher in-service" days nor do I get all the school holidays. That is part of being a professional in whatever business you choose. Nobody forces these teachers to do what they do. They have chosen this field, and can leave at any time if they feel they are being cheated. The large # of teachers waiting in the wings for jobs is a sign they aren't abused in any way.

Here is a great article about The Difference Between Private Sector and Public Sector Unions

http://www.anchorrising.com/barnacles/003001.html

A major difference between private and public entities is that the private firms have to earn their money through voluntary transactions. For all their rhetoric, private employee union leaders usually understand that it's best that the companies they negotiate with be competitive enough to stay in business and thrive -- and businesses can do that only if they provide a desirable good or service at a price the customers are willing to voluntarily pay.

On the other hand, public employee unions rely on the coercive power of government to tax anyone and anything within their jurisdiction...

Does this make the government union members "bad guys?" No, they are simply acting in their own, and their members', self-interest. But they are playing a zero sum game, thanks to the involuntary nature of taxation. Every dollar that goes to a government worker has to be taken from someone else by the threat of force.

And remember, public employees have something that private employees do not -- a civil service system. Indeed, there is good argument that collective bargaining for public employees is unnecessary because of all the employment protections they already receive. (Ever tried to fire a public employee?)

2wlady wrote: 1. Teachers, depending on the school district, are paid for about 9.5 months, so take that into account as you determine their salaries.

2. They must renew their certification every three years, at their own expense and it is NOT tax-deductable.

3. There is a learning methodology called "mastery learning." A student takes the learning module and must pass before moving on to the next learning module. The teachers don't control what and how they teach - admin controls that. Thus, those "bored" students who drop out of school could have been more involved if the Administration that drives what and how something is taught would get off their lazy butts and have their teachers teach to the student, not the tests they are required to teach to.

4. Before unions, teachers taught, stayed after school for various activities, graded papers at night, met with parents in the evenings, participated in weekend events, alll with no additional pay (unless they were coaches - great atheletic benefits). In other words, they didn't have personal lives.

Unions brought benefits to people who weren't in unions as well, such as 40 hr. work weeks and workman's comp when injured on the job. The number of men killed and maimed working for the railroads and mines without compensation was astronomical.

Nationwide the average is about 186 days of student contact, roughly half of the total number of days in the calendar year. The bell schedule for most high schools is less than 8 hours, usually closer to 7 than to 8. Of those 7 hours, a teacher will have at least 2 where there they have no student contact for planning and to eat their own lunch, leaving us with 5 hours of student contact in the classroom per teacher each school day, which as noted before is roughly half of the total number of days in the calendar year. Over the last 10 years the median average teaching salary in Colorado has risen over 25% to just over $49K a year in 2009-2010. That is not their total compensation package, it is just their salary, which might include their medical plan, but not their defined benefit pension plan.

Renewing certification requirements are 6 semester hours of continuing teacher education classes or 90 clock hours of professional development classes.

The Administration you are talking about is headed by the School Board of the particular school district. These are usually elected positions, dependent upon union support to win the election. Not many school board members are able to raise the funds necessary to campaign for the seat without the additional support that the unions give to those that they back for the job. The position is not as sexy or powerful as governor, or senator after all and hopefuls have a difficult time raising funds for their campaigns, especially when they are opposed by the public education employee unions.

Despite the claims of overcrowded classrooms, in Jeffco the pupil to teacher ratio is 17:1, in Park it is between 12 and 14:1. In Wisconsin in 2007, the state average was 15:1. Just for grins and giggles, the Jeffco School website says that there are 12K employees for the 84K students - which means it hires 1 employee for every 7 students it serves. Think that is a system that might be a little bloated insofar as employees are concerned, most of whom are represented by a union and qualify for PERA in Colorado?

PrintSmith wrote:

2wlady wrote: 1. Teachers, depending on the school district, are paid for about 9.5 months, so take that into account as you determine their salaries.

2. They must renew their certification every three years, at their own expense and it is NOT tax-deductable.

3. There is a learning methodology called "mastery learning." A student takes the learning module and must pass before moving on to the next learning module. The teachers don't control what and how they teach - admin controls that. Thus, those "bored" students who drop out of school could have been more involved if the Administration that drives what and how something is taught would get off their lazy butts and have their teachers teach to the student, not the tests they are required to teach to.

4. Before unions, teachers taught, stayed after school for various activities, graded papers at night, met with parents in the evenings, participated in weekend events, alll with no additional pay (unless they were coaches - great atheletic benefits). In other words, they didn't have personal lives.

Unions brought benefits to people who weren't in unions as well, such as 40 hr. work weeks and workman's comp when injured on the job. The number of men killed and maimed working for the railroads and mines without compensation was astronomical.

Nationwide the average is about 186 days of student contact, roughly half of the total number of days in the calendar year. The bell schedule for most high schools is less than 8 hours, usually closer to 7 than to 8. Of those 7 hours, a teacher will have at least 2 where there they have no student contact for planning and to eat their own lunch, leaving us with 5 hours of student contact in the classroom per teacher each school day, which as noted before is roughly half of the total number of days in the calendar year. Over the last 10 years the median average teaching salary in Colorado has risen over 25% to just over $49K a year in 2009-2010. That is not their total compensation package, it is just their salary, which might include their medical plan, but not their defined benefit pension plan.

Renewing certification requirements are 6 semester hours of continuing teacher education classes or 90 clock hours of professional development classes.

The Administration you are talking about is headed by the School Board of the particular school district. These are usually elected positions, dependent upon union support to win the election. Not many school board members are able to raise the funds necessary to campaign for the seat without the additional support that the unions give to those that they back for the job. The position is not as sexy or powerful as governor, or senator after all and hopefuls have a difficult time raising funds for their campaigns, especially when they are opposed by the public education employee unions.

Despite the claims of overcrowded classrooms, in Jeffco the pupil to teacher ratio is 17:1, in Park it is between 12 and 14:1. In Wisconsin in 2007, the state average was 15:1. Just for grins and giggles, the Jeffco School website says that there are 12K employees for the 84K students - which means it hires 1 employee for every 7 students it serves. Think that is a system that might be a little bloated insofar as employees are concerned, most of whom are represented by a union and qualify for PERA in Colorado?

Great info and statistics. Thanks!

THIS is what the teachers and the unions are fighitng for and why they feel they deserve to have their jobs protected....... :bash

Two-Thirds of Wisconsin Public-School 8th Graders Can’t Read Proficiently—Despite Highest Per Pupil Spending in Midwest

Two-thirds of the eighth graders in Wisconsin public schools cannot read proficiently according to the U.S. Department of Education, despite the fact that Wisconsin spends more per pupil in its public schools than any other state in the Midwest.

The test also showed that the reading abilities of Wisconsin public-school eighth graders had not improved at all between 1998 and 2009 despite a significant inflation-adjusted increase in the amount of money Wisconsin public schools spent per pupil each year.

In 1998, according to the U.S. Department of Education, Wisconsin public school eighth graders scored an average of 266 out of 500 on the NAEP reading test. In 2009, Wisconsin public school eighth graders once again scored an average of 266 out of 500 on the NAEP reading test. Meanwhile, Wisconsin public schools increased their per pupil expenditures from $4,956 per pupil in 1998 to 10,791 per pupil in 2008. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics inflation calculator the $4,956 Wisconsin spent per pupil in 1998 dollars equaled $6,546 in 2008 dollars. That means that from 1998 to 2008, Wisconsin public schools increased their per pupil spending by $4,245 in real terms yet did not add a single point to the reading scores of their eighth graders and still could lift only one-third of their eighth graders to at least a “proficient” level in reading.