Jekyll wrote: I'm a Wiccan/Pagan, and I live by basic moral principles, or try to anyway. If my son's graduation included religious proclamations of any kind and he didn't agree with it, I'd tell him to ignore it and get on with it to get his diploma and treat everyone with respect. Not worth it to make a stink. Who gives a damn. As long as what you believe in is good to others and the world around you, get on with life.
Great post Jekyll! Have been out and am leaving again so can't respond anymore to this. But this post speaks volumes. Thanks.
Do any of you remember Baccalaureate? Mine was at Washington Cathedral (Episcopalian) in DC.
How about this solution:
For those who want to pray and thank their deity(ies), have a Baccalaureate service where every religion being practiced by the students get their chance. Let those students' families pay for the darn thing, including renting space somewhere.
Then it isn't done using public funds, isn't on public property, and every student who wants to shout out how great their diety is for helping them graduate can do so.
Vomitus wrote: So no one answered my question from yesterday: If a student preseident (or other student) or faculty member started their speech with a prayer would this be against this policy and if so, why?
Interesting how you demand answers to your questions, yet refuse to answer questions posed to you, both in this thread and in others. Regardless, I am not sure what would legally happen to the person that started their speech with a prayer. If the ruling that was originally handed down prohibiting prayer and certain words were in place, then yes, it would appear that it would go against the judge's ruling. That much seems pretty clear. Not sure what would be the penalty should that happen.
I answered yours, now would you please answer mine?
Why do you feel it necessary to inject religion into a publicly funded graduation ceremony where none is required?
Jekyll wrote: I'm a Wiccan/Pagan, and I live by basic moral principles, or try to anyway. If my son's graduation included religious proclamations of any kind and he didn't agree with it, I'd tell him to ignore it and get on with it to get his diploma and treat everyone with respect. Not worth it to make a stink. Who gives a damn. As long as what you believe in is good to others and the world around you, get on with life.
I would give the same advice to my children, but would lodge a complaint afterwards to the school administration and school board.
Who gives a damn? I do. I firmly believe that religion has no place in publicly funded ceremonies on publicly owned land. A prayer, religious connotations, etc. that are expressed in a ceremony such as this are a sly endorsement of one religion over another, or even over those that have no belief in a deity.
You are welcome to worship whatever deity(s) you wish to, but don't force me to sit through it just because the majority of people in the crowd believe in those deities.
Let me ask, would you object if a speaker stood up and said "Please join me in kneeling toward Mecca and while we pray," or would you just ignore it?
2wlady wrote: Do any of you remember Baccalaureate? Mine was at Washington Cathedral (Episcopalian) in DC.
How about this solution:
For those who want to pray and thank their deity(ies), have a Baccalaureate service where every religion being practiced by the students get their chance. Let those students' families pay for the darn thing, including renting space somewhere.
Then it isn't done using public funds, isn't on public property, and every student who wants to shout out how great their diety is for helping them graduate can do so.
Kate wrote: Let me ask, would you object if a speaker stood up and said "Please join me in kneeling toward Mecca and while we pray," or would you just ignore it?
I would ignore it. If I felt that they were ignorant, I wouldn't make a huge scene about it. Course, I wouldn't be kneeling either.
2wlady wrote: Do any of you remember Baccalaureate? Mine was at Washington Cathedral (Episcopalian) in DC.
How about this solution:
For those who want to pray and thank their deity(ies), have a Baccalaureate service where every religion being practiced by the students get their chance. Let those students' families pay for the darn thing, including renting space somewhere.
Then it isn't done using public funds, isn't on public property, and every student who wants to shout out how great their diety is for helping them graduate can do so.
LadyJazzer wrote: Navy, without trying to get into a hassle about it, the difference is that schools, and school events are considered "public property", and those morons from Westboro are very careful to do their protesting on private property. There IS a distinction. Now, personally, I don't care if someone is so helpless that they feel like they cannot survive without a public-display of their religiosity. (Since one can actually pray anytime, anywhere, then the issue is not whether they can pray, but whether they can be SEEN praying and therefore appear to be religious to everyone else... Seems a bit narcissistic to me, but "whatever melts your butter." ....)
But as has been pointed out here more than a few times, the issue is also that if one is going to foist a "Christian" prayer on the whole crowd, then why not a chant to Allah; or the Flying Spaghetti Monster; or a Buddhist chant? Would that be okay?
Personally, I think it's much ado about nothing... But the distinction here is "public" vs. "private" property... (Which is the same brouhaha we go through every December when it gets crazy over the whole "nativity scenes on public property" silliness. After awhile, you'd think it wouldn't happen every year, but you can set your watch by it...
LJ as I agree with your statement about the public thing and private thing, Westboro does thier protesting on Public property. That is why for alot of thier protest they have to get a permit. That is also why the Freedom Rider, various Veteran organization etc show up to drown them out. So here is another senario for all of you. ( Just for info though I would not care who what kind of prayer it was. If you do not care to it then don't listen, I read it on here also and I agree, you deal with what you believe or do not believe and go with that.) But The US Military is public money, we serve the People of the United States. Tax payer money pays the salaries. Now granted most military installations are not public property. They are restricted access due to the nature of the installation. But we have military chaplains, and for most of the ceremonies in the Military there is a Prayer. On one of the ships I served on, we had morning Prayer over the 1MC(shipboard annoucing system). You were not required to listen to it. You could do your own prayer of your religion etc.
LadyJazzer wrote: Navy, without trying to get into a hassle about it, the difference is that schools, and school events are considered "public property", and those morons from Westboro are very careful to do their protesting on private property. There IS a distinction. Now, personally, I don't care if someone is so helpless that they feel like they cannot survive without a public-display of their religiosity. (Since one can actually pray anytime, anywhere, then the issue is not whether they can pray, but whether they can be SEEN praying and therefore appear to be religious to everyone else... Seems a bit narcissistic to me, but "whatever melts your butter." ....)
But as has been pointed out here more than a few times, the issue is also that if one is going to foist a "Christian" prayer on the whole crowd, then why not a chant to Allah; or the Flying Spaghetti Monster; or a Buddhist chant? Would that be okay?
Personally, I think it's much ado about nothing... But the distinction here is "public" vs. "private" property... (Which is the same brouhaha we go through every December when it gets crazy over the whole "nativity scenes on public property" silliness. After awhile, you'd think it wouldn't happen every year, but you can set your watch by it...
LJ as I agree with your statement about the public thing and private thing, Westboro does thier protesting on Public property. That is why for alot of thier protest they have to get a permit. That is also why the Freedom Rider, various Veteran organization etc show up to drown them out. So here is another senario for all of you. ( Just for info though I would not care who what kind of prayer it was. If you do not care to it then don't listen, I read it on here also and I agree, you deal with what you believe or do not believe and go with that.) But The US Military is public money, we serve the People of the United States. Tax payer money pays the salaries. Now granted most military installations are not public property. They are restricted access due to the nature of the installation. But we have military chaplains, and for most of the ceremonies in the Military there is a Prayer. On one of the ships I served on, we had morning Prayer over the 1MC(shipboard annoucing system). You were not required to listen to it. You could do your own prayer of your religion etc.
"Don't listen to it" is kind of like "Don't think about that pink elephant in the living room."
But I DO have the utmost respect for the folks who show up to drown out the Westboro nutjobs. Bless 'em!
Like I said, this strikes me as just another opportunity by some for an outrage-of-the-day over Christians-as-victims, and it gets tiresome after awhile.
So, a different judge decides the other way... "Move along folks, nothing to see here..."
What would happen if some valedictorian offered a Satanic prayer or said "Hail Satan" instead of "Amen"? Would everyone just tell their kid to just ignore it?
When you plant ice you're going to harvest wind. - Robert Hunter
