Federal Judge Prohibits Prayer at Texas Graduation Ceremony

04 Jun 2011 15:27 #101 by Obam me
I haven't read through all of the posts, so maybe this has been posted already.

Student-led prayer IS constitutional. I love it when students boldly proclaim their faith by praying publicly at football games, graduation, and events like "See you at the Pole" and "National Day of Prayer". And I love it even more knowing they have every legal right to do so.

Good post Viking. I admire your convictions.

Graduation And Other School Events


Can we have student-led prayer at graduation?

Yes! In Lee v. Weisman, the Supreme Court held only that it violates the Establishment Clause for school officials to invite clergy to give prayers at commencement.[FN15] Justice Kennedy made clear, for the majority, that the Court's decision was limited to the particular facts before the Court.[FN16] Thus, any change from the factual situation presented in Lee might alter the resulting opinion from the Court.

Students do not "shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate." [FN27] The same axiom is true at graduation.



http://www.aclj.org/issues/Resources/Do ... spx?ID=717

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04 Jun 2011 17:31 #102 by Soulshiner
It's like Christians feel like this country was founded for them as the masters, has been theirs by right and are determined to make sure that theirs is the most upfront and loudest of voices in make sure that everyone knows that they are in charge and it's going to stay that way. It's like having a discussion with an old man who starts shouting at the top of his lungs to drown you out and try to intimidate you.

When you plant ice you're going to harvest wind. - Robert Hunter

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04 Jun 2011 17:48 #103 by Kate
Here's the Supreme Court decision for the case Trouble cited, Lee v. Weisman:
http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case? ... i=scholarr

This is a good paragraph from the SC majority opinion:

The First Amendment protects speech and religion by quite different mechanisms. Speech is protected by ensuring its full expression even when the government participates, for the very object of some of our most important speech is to persuade the government to adopt an idea as its own. Meese v. Keene, 481 U. S. 465, 480-481 (1987); see also Keller v. State Bar of California, 496 U. S. 1, 10-11 (1990); Abood v. Detroit Bd. of Ed., 431 U. S. 209 (1977). The method for protecting freedom of worship and freedom of conscience in religious matters is quite the reverse. In religious debate or expression the government is not a prime participant, for the Framers deemed religious establishment antithetical to the freedom of all. The Free Exercise Clause embraces a freedom of conscience and worship that has close parallels in the speech provisions of the First Amendment, but the Establishment Clause is a specific prohibition on forms of state intervention in religious affairs with no precise counterpart in the speech provisions. Buckley v. Valeo, 424 U. S. 1, 92-93, and n. 127 (1976) (per curiam). The explanation lies in the lesson of history that was and is the inspiration for the Establishment Clause, the lesson that in the hands of government what might begin as a tolerant expression of religious views may end in a policy to indoctrinate and coerce. A state-created orthodoxy puts at grave risk that freedom of belief and conscience which are the sole assurance that religious faith is real, not imposed.


Another interesting paragraph:

We do not hold that every state action implicating religion is invalid if one or a few citizens find it offensive. People may take offense at all manner of religious as well as nonreligious messages, but offense alone does not in every case show a violation. We know too that sometimes to endure social isolation or even anger may be the price of conscience or nonconformity. But, by any reading of our cases, the conformity required of the student in this case was too high an exaction to withstand the test of the Establishment Clause. The prayer exercises in this case are especially improper because the State has in every practical sense compelled attendance and participation in an explicit religious exercise at an event of singular importance to every student, one the objecting student had no real alternative to avoid.

Our society would be less than true to its heritage if it lacked abiding concern for the values of its young people, and we acknowledge the profound belief of adherents to many faiths that there must be a place in the student's life for precepts of a morality higher even than the law we today enforce. We express no hostility to those aspirations, nor would our oath permit us to do so. A relentless and allpervasive attempt to exclude religion from every aspect of public life could itself become inconsistent with the Constitution. See School Dist. of Abington, supra, at 306 (Goldberg, J., concurring). We recognize that, at graduation time and throughout the course of the educational process, there will 599*599 be instances when religious values, religious practices, and religious persons will have some interaction with the public schools and their students. See Board of Ed. of Westside Community Schools (Dist. 66) v. Mergens, 496 U. S. 226 (1990). But these matters, often questions of accommodation of religion, are not before us. The sole question presented is whether a religious exercise may be conducted at a graduation ceremony in circumstances where, as we have found, young graduates who object are induced to conform. No holding by this Court suggests that a school can persuade or compel a student to participate in a religious exercise. That is being done here, and it is forbidden by the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.

For the reasons we have stated, the judgment of the Court of Appeals is

Affirmed.

Justice Blackmun, with whom Justice Stevens and Justice O'Connor join, concurring.

Nearly half a century of review and refinement of Establishment Clause jurisprudence has distilled one clear understanding: Government may neither promote nor affiliate itself with any religious doctrine or organization, nor may it obtrude itself in the internal affairs of any religious institution. The application of these principles to the present case mandates the decision reached today by the Court.


I read most of the decision and it does not say, point blank, that students can lead prayers. It states that there cannot be any state led (can be read to mean school sponsored) religious observation. The ACLJ web site, that Trouble listed, seems to interpret this as "if a spontaneous student led prayer happens, then it's not endorsed by the state." I'm paraphrasing there. So technically, it's not endorsed by the school, i.e., the state. That's how they get around it.

It's very dry reading, but from what I understand, prayer at public school graduations is not allowed. I could have read this decision wrong - like I said, it's somewhat confusing and I'm not a lawyer.

Perhaps someone else could read through it and see if I'm wrong on my interpretation?

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04 Jun 2011 19:28 #104 by Obam me
Troubling isn't it that students don't leave their first amendment rights at the school house door? They are not "getting around" anything. They are simply exercising their first amendment rights. :fwave:

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04 Jun 2011 19:41 #105 by ShilohLady
There seems to be a concern that the proposed prayer would have been a christian prayer ... do we know this for a fact? At most large gatherings that I've been at, when a prayer is offered - usually called an invocation - it is deliberately non-sectarian and typically calls upon 'God' which can be interpreted any way you wish.

Many boy scouting events end with: May the Great Scoutmaster of all Scouts be with us, until we meet again.

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04 Jun 2011 19:51 #106 by archer

Trouble wrote: Troubling isn't it that students don't leave their first amendment rights at the school house door? They are not "getting around" anything. They are simply exercising their first amendment rights. :fwave:

Sure they are...I'll bet you think it's ok when a student disrupts a class..he's just exercising his 1st amendment rights...and if he waves his gun around at school threatening other students.....that's his right too. I disagree with you trouble...kids should have rules to abide by in school.....it isn't a free for all.

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04 Jun 2011 19:58 #107 by Obam me
It's YOUR right to disagree and I'll back you up on that all day long. Pathetic though how you bring guns into the conversation.

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04 Jun 2011 20:01 #108 by archer

Trouble wrote: It's YOUR right to disagree and I'll back you up on that all day long. Pathetic though how you bring guns into the conversation.


Why? are you against gun rights?

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04 Jun 2011 20:03 #109 by archer
So tell me trouble....do you think there should be rules in school, even if the students think those rules infringe on their first amendment rights, or are you in favor of letting the little darlings run amok?

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04 Jun 2011 20:09 #110 by Obam me
Archer, your questions would make a good OP; however, this thread is about prayer at graduation. Like it or not, student-led prayer is legal. :biggrin:

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