A new Board? Any interest?

Something the Dog Said wrote: You really need to get over yourself. This is simply an internet forum with maybe a dozen to twenty posters. Why don't you just place LJ and others on ignore rather than pontificate about how great and reasonable you are and how terrible LJ is. LJ is an honest poster which is more than some of your "supporters" can claim. Put on you big boy pants and have some fun. Quit taking yourself so seriously, no one else does.

I am just fine and have accepted how serious I am, with how I communicate. I suggest you don't have to take me seriously and you seem to take it with a grain of salt. My opinions are equally as valid as anyone else s, the amount of words I choose to explain myself are mine. I am curious, am I offending you personally with the way I explain myself?

Why don't you take the time to show me that I am in fact not reasonable, using the reason you think I lack, rather than simply stating that I am unreasonable because I feel that I put reasons forth.

I agree, LJ is honest. That was not my concern and does not seem to be the concern of others. In fact everyone here WANTS to debate with people that disagree with them. I don't know why people keep hinting that this in not the case, it just sounds odd, like they are avoiding debating the issue at hand again. I do see a hint in your post of trying to create a team dynamic that does not really exist in order to vilify. I have less concerns with people not being honest than being vile, or I would have given VL more crap.

And thank you for doing as I have requested, and discussing things without attacking, the primary subject/theme at hand. Actually, I just re-read and saw your big boy pants comment. Seems a lot like the girly comment that got another post sent the the ring, I am not a little boy, so that is just an insult meant to demean me because you are not willing to put forth a much reason as you would like to your effect to reflect. You leave me wanting to do as I say and take it up, or rather down, a notch. I can come up with plenty of witty zingers, I am just trying to learn rather than spew that kind of stuff.

It takes far more words to explain yourself clearly, given we are communicating without body language and tone, and to not be misunderstood or have someone jump down my throat before they understand where I am coming from. This is true for everyone. Some people can do it better and shorter. Sorry I am wordy and concerned after the insults and many poor assumptions that we use on here, that things and perspectives could benefit by being explained a little more clearly. Anyone who says "clearly you missed my sarcasm" should get this, I may even have said that once. If getting over one's self means accepting numerous clear misinterpretations of what I have said, then I am not sure why someone would want that or do it.

Have you noticed some misunderstandings around here? This is what my person defaults to in order to avoid this.

I come to share and learn, I freely offer knowledge and ask for perspective and knowledge back - not to be told I am a child . I encourage you to realize that this is about the least serious part of my life, but you don't have to give a crap, you just decided to comment on it, so.... I live life quite intensely, my sense is you sense that. I am hard to handle, that is not always a good thing. I will not get over myself, such a thing is not possible and would work to weaken me even if it was. Again, please do not tell me I am a child in order to make any other point than I am really a human being with less than 15 years. That is the point of this entire thread. Please don't give me crap for taking time and making effort you are not willing to make. You do not have to read my stuff. You can ask for cliff notes.




Navy, I am unclear why you ask this, I don't want to go to another board, I don't think anyone else really does. I think you may have missed a post. I was trying to confuse a little with this thread, and kind of made it up as I was going along, with a clear intent to get folks just to talk and disagree and debate without insulting. I want LJ here , I want her perspective and I want to understand it. I know I don't always get what I want, but I am allowed to say it, for now.

navycpo7 wrote: Why would anyone want to go to another board. 285 Bound is pretty good. LJ has a right to her opinion as much as you or anyone else. So making your own board because you can't deal with LJ or others on here. Got to get some tough skin and keep on. Things here are not always all pretty and nice. So we deal with it. You have a choice, you can chose to ignore someone, not read a post, not reply to a post, hell for that fact you don't even have to open 285 bound. Life goes on and I will stay right here.

on that note wrote:

Something the Dog Said wrote:

on that note wrote: I post this after "leaving" out of respect for the creators of this great place and because they responded to this thread.

If I said this place was vile, I apologize for not being clear. Some people's posts are vile.

To all those that implied I should grow a pair, perhaps you missed something. I have stepped up to the plate many times to push topics to their end over and over. I don't give up easily. But eventually it just becomes over the top and not worth it. This does not make someone weak, it means they know their limit. If the limit is always near the bottom of the threshold, that would be weak. I really don't think I have given that impression with my posts, unwilling to engage. Many have said it in different ways on here and I bet that others can relate like me....that someone does not want to hate the world because they go back and forth with LJ....that they are sick of being abused verbally...I have had plenty of fights with my wife over little stuff after reading some of the vile NON back and forth that has resulted from LJesque posting.

Just like when people worry about a bad seed...others have brought up that LJ is not the only one, and I see where you are coming from, I do see it on both of YOUR FAKE "sides" and I see pretty clearly that just like the real world, just like groups of children, that when one starts acting up in an extreme way, that the standard for behavior changes. I believe that many of these folks got dragged down to this level by the queen, since she was so low, say a -10 rating, it made someone like Raees or Otis who could have only been a -2, turn into a -7. Don't take any rating but LJs too seriously, it is just an example, as I said, none of the others stand out as personalities as much. I read most posts based on their content and the other content by the same poster in the same thread. It seems a lot of the instant crap fight that is often started or propped up by LJ comes from stereotyping based on previous threads. I think these threads would make more sense if everyone was not tried over and over for the same previous crime simply because they chose to speak up to the queen...and I admit that all of us behave like her to some extent at different time and on some days she has to relinquish her throne.

Anyone who thought I have the time, patience or effort to run a board was just off. I did not have the idea and give up because a few people posted negatively about the idea.

I tried to moderate LJ by responding to her without hate all the time. Sure I have lost my temper on here, many have, but for many it is more rare.

I post mostly in the courthouse because I am here to discuss politics and peoples' desire to control others both through force and via the spoken/written word. This left me little use for the other forums. Just because they are more civil does not mean they would work for me. You would likely move all my posts to the courthouse based on the OP or the responses.

So I did look back and noticed that someone being called a girly man was moved to the ring......OMG if even a fraction of the stuff that is less provocative, less off topic and less vile that came from LJ and others was moved to the ring, this problem would go away or be minimized.

I think in the end that would have been my request. When someone starts to flip out, not meaning that they are posting long or pushing their point, but where they refuse to be part of a discussion, constantly off topic and just trying to get folks worked up...this would be a great time to move a thread to the ring - which I was able to get into today without signing in - BTW.

So - given that I stirred up some hoopla and we are having a somewhat decent discussion on the topic (though I would point out that LJ has not posted here yet on this thread, so it is pretty civil, even though folks are disagreeing greatly) I would be willing to moderate this forum, if we could come up with a protocol for identifying vile posts or posts that detract and move them to the ring. Surely if we know that calling someone a girly man belongs there, we can create a set of rules that takes care of the most offensive posts to id them for movement.

A great place to start would be to include examples of what people would call the most mean or inappropriate posts that have not been moved, but if they had been, it would have improved the quality of the civil discussion in the courthouse and allowed those that want to sling sh** to hang in the ring.

So again, I am willing to participate, not silence anyone, but perhaps move them into the right forum and take the heat and discuss those decisions with both other posters and management. I will do this for free. I am curious how you work it though, you must take shifts, as my understanding is that many folks have other stuff in their schedules like me and thus moderation will have holes if you have to be on all the time.

I want to be here, I like the positive discussions about negative things. I have spent many many hours responding to negative posts and trying very hard to turn the discussion back on track to something that can add to the community or trying to get folks that are slinging crap to answer simple questions. It does not seem to work. I do not claim I did this 100% of the time. Please be clear on that. I too have dragged down and been dragged by that shifting standard created by vile posts.

So again, I will be willing to be active in fixing this, but I think we need some new, well thought out, perhaps debated rules for how to get vile posts into the the vile ring where they belong so that this place can come closer to reaching its potential, which is clearly seen my most that come here as not being met, but still the best place. There are many parallels between my last statement and our great nation.

The theme of people wanting to leave and doing so to whatever extent and then coming back because they have hope and desire for civil discourse is repeating over and over. People like VL make a scene over it, I dabble in it. It is not healthy and I am not one to either keep my mouth shut or not take action for something I care about.

Thank you so much for this great infrastructure. I hope that the potential seen by all can be reached. Of course there could have been spontaneous cooperation, but that has not come about, and likely because there is not a way to keep people honest - there has not been a way to get people that have taken some kind of liberty to become a hateful speaker on line but somehow not be like that in person. Someone posted how they have met these vile posters and they are not like that in person - geez there are only two options there - acceptable but odd if someone is just playing games with their on line persona - or they are truly a weak and fake person with very little genuine self confidence or confidence in their convictions. But perhaps that was LJs point in doing this....to prove or make others prove how much governing is needed for people. THAT, has left me thinking, but I am pretty sure that even if she likes that this has happened to some extent, I am pretty sure she has not been mean on line for years just to make it happen - I think she was trying to do as I was - to convince people - she just is not into using honey, more into spitting fire.

Peace to all the smart people on here. Let's make this a better place.

Keep me posted and I don't check the email associated with my login, so PM is likely the best way. I did not proof this, so I am sorry and in the vein of my previous attempts at civil discourse on the topic....

...I am really curious to see what the Lady Jazzer persona has to say about this topic. Clearly it is one that many people are in on, has brought people up to the surface that have been hiding. Lady Jazzer, why do you think you have been singled out so much by so many? Lady Jazzer could you even begin to respond to this thread, which I am sure feels like an attack, without going vile the way you do on things that have FAR less to do with you? Do you have any concern for the way you make others in the community feel so bad, when you clearly love being here as much as we do? As I have so many times before, I am asking straight forward questions based very directly on the topic at hand. Will you give your standard starting to be vile answer that you have no responsibility to do anything for anyone (but don't forget to remind us that we all must provide sources for you - sources that support your point or they are made fun of) or can we bring this back around? Do you have any pushy, but not vile questions along the same vein that I could answer or that perhaps I could go to bat trying to get others that boil your blood to answer? You are often very responsive to the concerns of groups of citizens in the larger national or state community, can you responsive to this concern, which you have more power to influence than anything else we ever talk about on this board...EVAH?

Sorry to subject you all to me, I assure you it is only slightly more intense in person. The person you are talking to on line is to a T the person you will meet on the river. Anyone who has actually met me from this board would know it was me in a heartbeat - even from the next isle at Prathers or if you have come into my businesses and talked to me. My family and friends read my posts and laugh, **** is **** all the time. And yes, I know I am an asshole.

Alternative to all of the above...

How about when someone cops an attitude vs. discussing - that is a ring topic - that simple?

You really need to get over yourself. This is simply an internet forum with maybe a dozen to twenty posters. Why don't you just place LJ and others on ignore rather than pontificate about how great and reasonable you are and how terrible LJ is. LJ is an honest poster which is more than some of your "supporters" can claim. Put on you big boy pants and have some fun. Quit taking yourself so seriously, no one else does.

I am just fine and have accepted how serious I am, with how I communicate. I suggest you don't have to take me seriously and you seem to take it with a grain of salt. My opinions are equally as valid as anyone else s, the amount of words I choose to explain myself are mine. I am curious, am I offending you personally with the way I explain myself?

Why don't you take the time to show me that I am in fact not reasonable, using the reason you think I lack, rather than simply stating that I am unreasonable because I feel that I put reasons forth.

I agree, LJ is honest. That was not my concern and does not seem to be the concern of others. I do see a hint in your post of trying to create a team dynamic that does not really exist in order to vilify. I have less concerns with people not being honest than being vile, or I would have given VL more crap.

And thank you for doing as I have requested, and discussing things without attacking, the primary subject/theme at hand. Actually, I just re-read and saw your big boy pants comment. Seems a lot like the girly comment that got another post sent the the ring, I am not a little boy, so that is just an insult meant to demean me because you are not willing to put forth a much reason as you would like to your effect to reflect. You leave me wanting to do as I say and take it up, or rather down, a notch. I can come up with plenty of witty zingers, I am just trying to learn rather than spew that kind of stuff. I come to share and learn, I freely offer knowledge and ask for perspective and knowledge back - not to be told I am a child.

Navy, I am unclear why you ask this, I don't want to go to another board, I don't think anyone does. I think you may have missed a post. I was trying to confuse a little with this thread, and kind of made it up as I was going along, with a clear intent to get folks just to talk and disagree and debate without insulting. I want LJ here, I want her perspective and I want to understand it. I know I don't always get what I want, but I am allowed to say it, for now.

I did only read about 2/3 of the posts in this thread. So I may have missed one or two. Sorry, though I do not agree with LJ on numerous things and there is times that I do, as with others, I believe everyone is entitled to thier opinions. I do agree though, you are allowed to say it. As is everyone.

Writing elsewhere about this, I came up with something that perhaps summarized some of my expectations and why I have them or had them in less than 10,000 words.

In the real world....

When you are in "the ring", you are in a fight, things can get bloody, unreasonable, backhanded attempts to control things when they are at a head can make things worse and it is all about overwhelming or overpowering your openent.

When you are in "the courthouse", you must show respect, you must prove your case, you must allow all sides to be heard, some things are inadmissible, most certainly someone is in charge and it is all about truth or consequences.

Does thing ring anyone's bell?



have you ever seen this in the courthouse advance a debate? ----> :rofllol

Raees wrote: To me the solution is simple in concept but time-consuming from a moderator standpoint: remove any ad hominem (personal) attacks from posts and put them in The Ring. Do that enough and I bet posters will get the idea that only issues be discussed, not individuals. Make it part of the Terms of Service.

As I said, it would be labor intensive, from a moderator standpoint.

I would make it even simpler. Any post containing an off topic sentence or fragment of a sentence goes to the ring in its entirety. I think people would get the idea even quicker. It would only have to be one forum. Heck it would be so easy even I could do it.

Notice how the essence of the simple common solution is actually starting to gel and it is not even partisan. This is what happens when we stay on topic and are somewhat civil. I really would like LJs view on this stuff.

For all the crap we talk about here, this is just about the only thread where we can come up the a practical solution and we can implement it and we can even try again. I really appreciate the participation on this higher level.

on that note wrote: Notice how the essence of the simple common solution is actually starting to gel and it is not even partisan. This is what happens when we stay on topic and are somewhat civil. I really would like LJs view on this stuff.

For all the crap we talk about here, this is just about the only thread where we can come up the a practical solution and we can implement it and we can even try again. I really appreciate the participation on this higher level.

I've tried to bring this subject up numerous times over the years with zero success. I know I'm not the greatest communicator so maybe you'll have more of an impact.

I've tried playing nice and still end up getting verbally crapped on in return. Bottom line is this, some people on this board (very few and especially one) start threads and interupt threads with a distict tone of hatred toward the group they see as the enemy. Using hateful or derogatory terms over and over with every post is the easiest and most effective way to say "fuck you scumbag I'm right and you're a POS" instead of stating a case reasonably as if talking face to face.

Here's a fun gane to play... pick the person you think is the most hateful nasty poster, go to their profile, search their posts, and pick any random post. Pick at least ten and count how many are laced with a tone of hatred in some way. Then look at the thread from the start and see who was the first to drop a turd in the punchbowl. I know and I think everyone else knows who the winner of that conest would be.

One way to take the power away from a hater is to not fuel the hater's heart with a response. I'm guilty of playing that game myself and allowing the most vile and hateful person on this board to get stronger by reacting to posts that were only meant to anger. Unfortunately there are still people who haven't figured this out... it's almost like they enjoy being berated (I can think one one who gets beaten up every day and must have some sort of fetish for it).

The other way to minimize the effects of a person fueled by hate and hell bent on crushing civil debate, is to be called out by one of his/her own. This is what takes the most courage but it never happens because there are too many cowards who don't care how one of their own makes a point, even if it's a bigotted comment they would never make. I'll make the pledge right now to call out those who agree with my ideology yet choose to use hate and name calling to make a point.

Thanks for bringing this subject up again OTN, I gave up quite a while ago. Maybe the tone will eventually change around here and maybe our elected leaders will be honest.

The problem with that Heisenberg, is that those of a different ideological bent don't always recognize the proverbial "turd". Everyone piles on LadyJazzer, and her tone is bad, but let's not pretend that there are posters on the right whose tone is equally hateful. Singling out a single poster you disagree with while giving those you do agree with a pass will do nothing to solve the problem. Perhaps gentle admonishments from those who are allies in the argument would be 100X more efficient than slams from an opponent.

Have you ever seen any allies of LJ give even the remotest of gentle admonishments?

The only way to deal with LJ is to go full bore right back at her.

But really her obnoxious posts should be sent immediately to the ring. She has been allowed to go unfettered adnauseum. Throw her posts in the ring and you will see a big change in the Courthouse, much more like it was supposed to be. Most respond to her negativity and if it isn't in the Courthouse it will be in the ring where it should be.

Something the Dog Said wrote: You really need to get over yourself. This is simply an internet forum with maybe a dozen to twenty posters. Why don't you just place LJ and others on ignore rather than pontificate about how great and reasonable you are and how terrible LJ is. LJ is an honest poster which is more than some of your "supporters" can claim. Put on you big boy pants and have some fun. Quit taking yourself so seriously, no one else does.

Well said....