Can you question patriotism?

I just seem so Orwellian. Guilty until you pay.

I believe this to be futile...and you are quick to shoot at me should I show any signs of aggression, or of giving an opinion different than yours. But, I'm responding because there are several things you said that are absolutely incorrect and there might be a small chance that we could come to a truce. My responses are in blue.

Baileyboy wrote: Thanks for your reply CB. You need to learn how to use the "Quote" button at the top of the page. Far easier to separate your words from mine. Okay

YOU might find it easier to use the “Quote” button…I do not. Just because I did not perform the task YOUR way, does not mean I am wrong or am doing the task incorrectly…it just means I chose to do something differently than you. This statement from you reminds me of my ex-husband: there were two ways to do things—his way and the wrong way, and if you weren’t doing it his way it was the wrong way.

ComputerBreath wrote: OK, since you are so anxious to hear and/or see what I saw, here it is:

"If there is one thing that gets a liberal it is calling them out on whether or not their conduct is that of a patriot. Note I said conduct. A thought, or a belief is not conduct. Then there are those who believe they are beyond reproach."

ComputerBreath wrote: Seems to me this is an assumption and opinion, not fact.

This statement proves one of two things. Either you pay no attention to what goes on around you and to what people say, or you don't get out much.

The assumption and/or opinion comment was in regards to calling out a liberal on whether or not their conduct is that of a patriot. In my opinion, guntottingliberal is a chauvinist…but that is my opinion and there is no way this can be confirmed at this time because, without me actually meeting guntottingliberal and/or seeing the context of the posts or words that were said to him prior to his post (which you extracted and included in your original post) about being an Honorably Discharged Veteran, I don’t know where he is coming from or why his statement was made and to whom it was made. Where was his quote extracted from? Maybe if I saw the total thread where this was originally posted…not the one you started with the excerpt, my opinion would change. This opinion is my perspective based on unprovable or incomplete information.

The above being said, what the h-e-double toothpicks does my telling you that you haven’t produced enough evidence to convince me that this guy believes he is beyond reproach have to do with me paying attention to what goes on around me and to what people say or that I don’t get out much? I merely have not been privy to ALL of the information and conversation that happened prior to him saying he was Honorably Discharged…etc, etc, etc., so I will not assume anything.

The glaring example of this around here would be
guntottingliberal wrote:
I am an Honorably Discharged Veteran. I served 6 years active duty in the United States Navy. 5 years in the Naval Reserves. 8 years as a contractor for the United States Navy. And currently 2 years as a contractor for the US Dept of Commerce. I served my country and continue to serve my country. If you want to question my patriotism because you disagree with my views on the environment, first ask yourself what have you done for your country."

I am completely unsure where this quote is taken from. I would presume it is from a post made somewhere else and is not in context...I don't see the reason guntotingliberal jumped to his own defense and (yes, I agree) started pounding his chest about being a patriot for having served in the military and worked for the government. It seems to me that maybe he was attacked and possibly provoked.

"What we have here is another life spent on the govt. tit. No clue of how money is made."

ComputerBreath wrote: Again, your idea that someone who has worked for the govt ("...spent on the govt tit") and because of this has no clue how money is made, is opinion, not fact. We all know that money is made at government controlled mints, under jurisdiction of the Federal Reserve...but that doesn't have anything to do with this post. Former and current government workers may not be in positions to actually generate funds for their office or department; however, they do know how to manage money...doing so judiciously is another story...there are some that do, and some that don't, same as in the civilian world and in countries around the Earth.

It is totally relevant. If you have no clue what is involved in trying to run a company being oppressed by govt. regulation and taxation you have no right to be trying to get even more regulations and laws passed and imposed on them just to suit your selfish worldview. "Till you walk a mile in their shoes........ STFU"

What is totally relevant? This is a non-sequitor, because I did not say anything about relevance. This is what I read, though I may be wrong: So everyone in government service (including the E1 that just is in basic training) is oppressing you with govt regulations and taxation and is trying to get even more regulations and laws passed and imposed on you just to suit their selfish world view?

Without some of these government systems such as the Dept of Commerce and the Dept of Labor, flawed as they are, business would literally come to a screeching halt. If you have a better way or system, what would it be?

In my opinion, if an individual tries to run a business, it is their responsibility to do whatever research is necessary to determine that the business remain viable, which includes compliance with any and all regulations imposed on them by all levels of government…I do not believe this is any different in any country in the world, though I would say that in a lot of other countries, trying to maintain and run a business is far less fair than doing so in the U.S. Would you rather have controlled, somewhat governed & monitored rules and regulations or have to deal with graft and bribery and immoral, unfair business practices? Maybe I need to STFU because I have not in the past, nor do I now nor will I ever in the future try to run a company…it is not what I want to do with my life. I just don’t understand your absolute reluctance to see that maybe some current, former, and future government workers DO know how to make money…they understand it same as a private business owner.

"There are plenty of people who are joining the military and military reserves for reasons other than love of country."

ComputerBreath wrote: So an individual that joins because they want an education or to see the world doesn't love their country?

Again yet another liberal delusion. The purpose of the military is to kill people and break things. It isn't a social welfare program. It isn't a tour guide service.
I know that that is the little dog and pony show they put on in their recruitment advertising, but that is the worm to hook all the young impressionable fish they need to make their quotas.

Nope…not liberal, not conservative…not a delusion. Here is where you are absolutely, indelibly WRONG. The purpose of each individual in the military is: “…to support and defend the constitution of the United States from all enemies, foreign and domestic. To bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and to obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over them, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice.” From what I just quoted, which is from the Oath of Enlistment each and every enlisted member takes upon joining the military (there is a version similar to this that officers take), there is nothing that says “my purpose is to kill people and break things.” Therefore, the purpose of the military is to support and defend the country from all enemies, in whatever capacity the government deems necessary…this could mean killing, maiming, and destruction, but that is how the goal is achieved, not the sole purpose. Furthermore, destruction of people and property is to be avoided, if at all possible, as per specific Rules of Engagement given to every Sailor, Soldier, Airman, Marine, and Coast Guardsman within the Area of Responsibility.

I’m not going to look it up, but I do not believe there is anything in the Constitution of the United States that says “kill people and break things”. If you can prove me wrong about the Constitution, please do so. Again, I’m not going to look it up, but I do not believe any President has said to the military “go kill people and break things”…if you can prove me wrong, I invite you to do so. I’ll be waiting with baited breath.

You failed to answer my question, which was: Someone who joins for any reason other than that they love their country—be it to get an education, to see the world, to support their family, because they want to get out of their oppressive situation, because they are bored, etc., etc.—means they don’t love their country?

Let’s see…I believe there are large corporations out there that go to universities and colleges and put on their own “dog and pony shows”, expounding upon the travel benefits, or the medical/dental benefits, as well as the monetary benefits and the opportunity for growth and promotion within the company…they are trying to “hook all the young impressionable fish they need” to make the money they need to make their companies run. How is what these corporations do any different than what the military does?

"Some are joining for the carrots that the recruiters are dangling."

ComputerBreath wrote: Everything the recruiter says is a carrot dangling in front of the individual...ever heard that recruiters lie? Well...by law they cannot outright lie, but they can skew the truth and they are taught salesman skills that are extraordinary...I've watched some of their teaching sessions as I used to belong to the Air Force training unit that trained recruiters their skills. Their whole goal after they start wearing the recruiter "cookie" is to meet their monthly and annual recruiting goals...and there are extraordinary lengths and a lot of time spent doing so.

So you admit that a percentage of the skulls full of mush they hoodwink are not signing on the line because of love of country or a desire to be part of the military, but rather what they can get out of it. Put another way, "Ask not what I do for my country, but what can my country do for me". (Sorry Jack)


So, am I in the percentage of mush-skulls and hoodwinked people because I chose to try to better my life? My motives for joining the Air Force at the age of 17 weren’t altruistic…I didn’t join as Pat Tillman did because I wanted to serve my country—I joined to better my life. Selfish? Maybe. Whose motives at that age are not selfish and about what the individual can get in return? Very few people at the age of 17, 18, or 19 or sometimes older than that do anything that isn’t about furthering themselves or their own agenda…about getting versus giving. Very few go into an enlisted career or officer career with the lofty motives for love of country, however a great preponderance exit their careers with their eyes open to the great gift of this land and the opportunity it affords its citizens.

"Some are joining just so they can undermine the efforts of the military."

ComputerBreath wrote: Please let me know any of these people...names, ages, and addresses please so I can "help" them get three hots and a cot at a Federal prison. Subversion is punishable by death during war-time and I still have friends in the military that I don't want to see injured or killed by an idiot.

Do you pay any attention to the news? And do tell where the death penalty has been executed by the US military for anything post WWII?

I didn’t say the death penalty had been used as punishment since WWII…I said it can be used. When talking about traitors or saboteurs, I would surmise you are specifically speaking of the young man who allegedly gave classified information to Wikileaks or maybe of Maj Hasan who shot and killed and injured a lot of individuals at Fort Hood in Texas…though since you have not given me examples, I am totally unsure of this. Well, as I said, each of these individuals, when proven guilty beyond a doubt by the American judicial system, will get their just punishment. I was at a base where a former airman shot and killed 6 or 7 individuals because he thought he had been unjustly discharged from the Air Force…he wasn’t sentenced to death because the security policeman at the scene felt it better to kill him there so he didn’t harm any other individuals. Just punishment, whether meted out by the court system or in another fashion, happens.

Barring a few exceptions, most persons in the military take their oath of protection very seriously and go out of their way to root out the disaffected who are then discharged from service.

"Some are joining out of frustration with home life."

ComputerBreath wrote: This is true. I joined because I would have gotten no where on my own in the place I was at when I graduated high school. Don't knock these individuals...I know a lot of them who have become fantastic leaders and followers. People that I want in the foxhole next to me 'cuz they'd have my back.

You had no response to this. I don’t know that I’d want to share a foxhole with you…I think you would be a distraction from the mission and I might get injured or killed…but this again, is my opinion based on what you’ve previously said.

"According to John "I once served in Vietnam" Kerry some are joining out of desperation."

ComputerBreath wrote: True...go to jail or join the military. Stay in the projects and possibly get raped, maimed, killed or be forced to join a gang. Desperation also causes suicide, homicide, rape, drug and alcohol use, depression, etc. I'd rather someone join out of desperation and learn to love what they are doing for their country than have them become a violent gang member and kill an innocent. And I realize that there are gang members who join specifically to get leadership skills and experience with weapons...these people also deserve three hots and a cot in Federal prison.

"Point is not everyone who joins the military is doing it because they are a patriot in their heart."

ComputerBreath wrote: You are correct; however, as I posted in my first post...most that do join the military become a patriot...it is called a change of heart...and if the individual truly takes to heart the change of lifestyle the military requires, they become patriots through and through. Those that do not change their hearts...well, they can stay in Afghanistan.

Most is not the same as all. This is what I mean by the liberal mind seeing what it wants to see rather than what is there.

Life is not “all or nothing”—black or white—it is some, all, none, black, and white with quite a bit of gray thrown in and sometimes it is all of the above. Tell me where “all” the farmers are patriots. Show me where every single miner in the United States is a patriot.

Again, my mind is not “liberal” or “conservative” or black or white or whatever moniker you have decided it should be…you do not know me, you have not ever met me, you do not know my politics, my views on life and the world, my experiences, the depth of my pain, the heights of my joys…therefore, I do not believe you have the right to describe me as anything other than what you know of me—which is female, veteran, patriot (yes, I’m chest-thumping), mother, worker, blond, and if you’ve read any other posts I’ve made, dog-owner, truck-driver, road-warrior, Colorado Native, stubborn, victim, daughter, sister, combat-boot wearing American.

In this case, I am seeing that you have deliberately baited me and are waiting to attack whatever I say. Which would include the apology I made earlier. This makes you close-minded and simple and unable to accept apologies.

"Spending your working life living off the taxpayers tit doesn't make you a patriot."

ComputerBreath wrote: Is this a general statement or directed at someone in particular? I read it to mean that anyone who works for any government entity (federal, state, county...military or civilian) lives off the taxpayers. Well, each and every one of them are taxpayers so in essence they are paying part of their own salary, therefore living off of themselves. And, you are correct...just 'cuz you work for the government and your salary is paid for by taxpayers...that doesn't make a person a patriot.

If a farmer grows 100 tons of oranges and the govt takes 30 tons as taxes and hands 5 tons of the oranges to their employees, then takes back 1/2ton as tax it is just a masquerade or an illusion. They could just as easily have given them 4 1/2 tons and taken nothing and save a whole lot of paperwork. Because the govt. employee produced zilch. They are just a remora living off the production of the farmer, and the factory worker etc

You are conveniently omitting the substantial subsidies afforded to the farmer by the fed and state governments to allow them to sell their products at a competitive rate in the market.

Again, you failed to answer my question: Was your statement a general statement or directed at someone in particular?

I don’t understand your farmer analogy. And Remora’s have a purpose—they are not just parasites living off of their hosts…they clean out the gills of the larger life forms they contact…making sure disease and rot doesn’t occur. I believe a leech, an amoeba, or a tapeworm would have been a better use of an example of a living being living off the production of someone or something else.

"And claiming it does makes you look like an ass."

ComputerBreath wrote: Again, is this a generalized statement or directed at someone in particular? I may act like an ass at times, but I certainly don't look like an ass...they have far more fur and a longer nose than I do.

"The guys and gals who get up every day and go and bust their hump on the farm, mine, oil field, factory, office, etc etc and pay huge portions of their income in taxes to the govt. are patriots."

ComputerBreath wrote: I do not disagree...however, I work in an office now in the civilian world...so does my working in an office in the civilian world cancel out the 20+ years I spent in the military? Am I allowed to show my patriotism by displaying my retirement shadow box complete with US flag on my desk at my civilian job? Would you even consider me worthy to be a patriot?

Again I think you have totally missed the point. It isn't about what I think is or isn't a patriot. It is about a person who uses the fact they served in or served the military in some capacity to justify themselves being given a pass for their anti American activity post service.

Where was there any mention of “anti-American” activity? If you are referring to guntottingliberal’s excerpted post at the beginning of this whole thread…well, I’ve already explained that I need more information.

"But they don't walk around beating on their chest going "Look what a good boy am I" do they?"
Actually, try again...I know plenty of arrogant individuals who do walk around beating on their chests going "Look what a good boy am I". They come in all shapes, sizes, and colors and they are extremely annoying...civilian, military, white, black, yellow, red, male, or female...they are out there.[/quote]

Again you take a line out of context so this is moot.

Where in this post have you told me that I’ve taken something out of context? I cannot find where you have told me this. And you are the one that said non-affiliated-with-the-government-people, i.e., the farmer, the miner, etc., don’t go around expounding their patriotic nature. I am merely pointing out that there are arrogant, chauvinistic people in all walks of life.

"And if all you have to to offer up in defense of you views on the environment, (whatever they are) is how many years you have sucked off the taxpayers, pretty much says your environmental positions don't pass the giggle test."

ComputerBreath wrote: As said earlier in this post, I am unsure as to what context this statement relating to the copied post is in.

Go back and read the quote I provided in its entirety. The picture may become clear to you.

Nope the picture isn’t clear to me because I don’t have all the information. See the two times above where I asked for it.

ComputerBreath wrote: Now, let me tell you a couple things:
1) There are two words that will irritate and piss me off. Both refer to parts of a female's anatomy, both end in the letter "t". I do not use them. I do not like them to be used around me. They are vile, debasing and disrespectful. And this is entirely my opinion, so I'm sure there are others out there that will try to change my opinion...it won't happen. Seeing or hearing these words is akin to me seeing red. I apologize for jumping the gun.

Suggest you move to a country where they don't speak English and here is the important part. Don't learn the language there. Because as sure as the sun rises in the east they will have their own words for the same thing and then your precious sensibilities will be under assault yet again. Must have been 20 years of hell for you in the military with your dislike for words ending in T.

Did you see the apology?

I’ve lived in two countries where English is not the main language spoken…Turkey and Italy. And yes, both Turkish and Italian have their own expletives. In Turkey one of them is “sik” (pronounced sick) and another is peac (prounounced peach). They are disrespectful if spoken in that language and I never heard a Turk use either of them…Americans were warned not to and that is why to this day I say I am “ill” versus I am “sick”.
I believe you delight in using these terms and offending others. This is childish and what my young children (like younger than 10) would have done. Of course, they also got their faces slapped when they did so.

Those with the proper level of professionalism don’t have a problem not using these words in their communication. It is a mind grasping for clarity that has to fall back on crudity to compensate for a lack of imagination. Furthermore, the Air Force frowns on the use of expletives as it isn’t conducive to showing a “good face” to the civilians we come into contact with. The use of antagonistic words when asked not to use them could be construed as harassment and is a punishable offense.

Actually…no my 20 years spent in the Air Force was absolutely fantastic. Each and every job; all the bases I was stationed at; all the units I worked in; putting the uniform on and putting my hair up every day was very humbling and I absolutely do not regret any minute I spent in. Contrary to you, when I asked any of my co-workers, peers, subordinates, or supervisors to quit utilizing crude words around me…they did. It is called respect.

ComputerBreath wrote: 2) I believe the point of your original post was to complain about someone saying they were a patriot because they served in the military and then as a civilian at a government job and that no one should question their beliefs, conduct, or opinion because of this. If this is the case, then why all the other verbiage? And why so many generalizations?

Once again, you failed to answer my questions.

ComputerBreath wrote: 3) And, FYI...I am female so sleeping in bubba's bunk sounds delightful.

I guess that admission speaks volumes about you.

What, that I enjoy sleeping with men versus women? It has been a long dry spell…

ComputerBreath wrote: 4) I do not consider myself a "Lib" (liberal) or conservative. I am American.

Stand for nothing and fall for anything[/quote]

It’s clear to me that you have never spent a moment of time in either the military or government service. Following the orders given from supervisors is paramount as is respecting your fellow worker—something you seem not capable of. Politicians’ flaws are not the responsibility of the government and in no way reflect on the level of competency of the military, which may be political in the upper echelons of its organization, but is not political in the lower ranks where those who keep it running work.

Again, you are assuming that I stand for nothing and fall for anything. I’m standing up to your arrogant, crude, small-minded butt aren’t I? Believe if you must that I will “fall for anything”…meaning I do not think for myself. I believe I’ve proven otherwise.