Can you question patriotism?

Does pride in being an American enter into this? I'm a vietnam vet. It was there when I found out that I was not an American citizen at the time '66-'67. It never entered my mind not to answer the draft, it was my duty as I wrongly believe I was an American citizen in 1965.

To answer the question of the thread. Sure. You can question anything an everything. The real question should be how do you define patriotism? For me, it would mean defending America when it is threatened. Now that can mean a whole lot of things, but in my book it does not include the invasion of other nations. It also means proudly flying the flag, rooting for our nation wherever it competes, and making sure I'm a good ambassador when I travel. It's not much, but that is where my heart is.

I would agree with all of that Rocdoc, but I would add it is patriotic to try and steer you country and fellow countrymen away from their path when you feel it is wrong or immoral.

A uniform and honorable discharge papers doesn't make you a patriot... And spouting jingoistic phrases, (with or without having actually served) doesn't make you one either.

I agree with TM, it IS patriotic to speak up when you think your country is doing something wrong, immoral, or starting wars "just because it can." That "My country, right or wrong" mentality is hopefully headed for the trashbin of history.

And I agree with all of RockDoc's points...

towermonkey wrote: I would agree with all of that Rocdoc, but I would add it is patriotic to try and steer you country and fellow countrymen away from their path when you feel it is wrong or immoral.

TM, feelings are for which horse to bet on your first time to the track. Ask VL how far feelings will get you in that world on a regular basis. Decisions regarding country should be made on knowledge and fact, not emotions. Look what we got in the white house based on "feelings".

Okay, poor phrasing. When you are convinced that your country is doing something wrong or immoral, you should try and steer it away from that path.

OK, since you are so anxious to hear and/or see what I saw, here it is:

NOTE: Original postings are in quotations with my responses below the quoted area.

"If there is one thing that gets a liberal it is calling them out on whether or not their conduct is that of a patriot. Note I said conduct. A thought, or a belief is not conduct. Then there are those who believe they are beyond reproach."

Seems to me this is an assumption and opinion, not fact.

"The glaring example of this around here would be
guntottingliberal wrote:
I am an Honorably Discharged Veteran. I served 6 years active duty in the United States Navy. 5 years in the Naval Reserves. 8 years as a contractor for the United States Navy. And currently 2 years as a contractor for the US Dept of Commerce. I served my country and continue to serve my country. If you want to question my patriotism because you disagree with my views on the environment, first ask yourself what have you done for your country."

I am completely unsure where this quote is taken from. I would presume it is from a post made somewhere else and is not in context...I don't see the reason guntotingliberal jumped to his own defense and (yes, I agree) started pounding his chest about being a patriot for having served in the military and worked for the government. It seems to me that maybe he was attacked and possibly provoked.

"What we have here is another life spent on the govt. tit. No clue of how money is made."

Again, your idea that someone who has worked for the govt ("...spent on the govt tit") and because of this has no clue how money is made, is opinion, not fact. We all know that money is made at government controlled mints, under jurisdiction of the Federal Reserve...but that doesn't have anything to do with this post. Former and current government workers may not be in positions to actually generate funds for their office or department; however, they do know how to manage money...doing so judiciously is another story...there are some that do, and some that don't, same as in the civilian world and in countries around the Earth.

"There are plenty of people who are joining the military and military reserves for reasons other than love of country."
So an individual that joins because they want an education or to see the world doesn't love their country?

"Some are joining for the carrots that the recruiters are dangling."
Everything the recruiter says is a carrot dangling in front of the individual...ever heard that recruiters lie? Well...by law they cannot outright lie, but they can skew the truth and they are taught salesman skills that are extraordinary...I've watched some of their teaching sessions as I used to belong to the Air Force training unit that trained recruiters their skills. Their whole goal after they start wearing the recruiter "cookie" is to meet their monthly and annual recruiting goals...and there are extraordinary lengths and a lot of time spent doing so.

"Some are joining just so they can undermine the efforts of the military."
Please let me know any of these people...names, ages, and addresses please so I can "help" them get three hots and a cot at a Federal prison. Subversion is punishable by death during war-time and I still have friends in the military that I don't want to see injured or killed by an idiot.

"Some are joining out of frustration with home life."
This is true. I joined because I would have gotten no where on my own in the place I was at when I graduated high school. Don't knock these individuals...I know a lot of them who have become fantastic leaders and followers. People that I want in the foxhole next to me 'cuz they'd have my back.

"According to John "I once served in Vietnam" Kerry some are joining out of desperation."
True...go to jail or join the military. Stay in the projects and possibly get raped, maimed, killed or be forced to join a gang. Desperation also causes suicide, homicide, rape, drug and alcohol use, depression, etc. I'd rather someone join out of desperation and learn to love what they are doing for their country than have them become a violent gang member and kill an innocent. And I realize that there are gang members who join specifically to get leadership skills and experience with weapons...these people also deserve three hots and a cot in Federal prison.

"Point is not everyone who joins the military is doing it because they are a patriot in their heart."
You are correct; however, as I posted in my first post...most that do join the military become a patriot...it is called a change of heart...and if the individual truly takes to heart the change of lifestyle the military requires, they become patriots through and through. Those that do not change their hearts...well, they can stay in Afghanistan.

"Spending your working life living off the taxpayers tit doesn't make you a patriot."
Is this a general statement or directed at someone in particular? I read it to mean that anyone who works for any government entity (federal, state, county...military or civilian) lives off the taxpayers. Well, each and every one of them are taxpayers so in essence they are paying part of their own salary, therefore living off of themselves. And, you are correct...just 'cuz you work for the government and your salary is paid for by taxpayers...that doesn't make a person a patriot.

"And claiming it does makes you look like an ass."
Again, is this a generalized statement or directed at someone in particular? I may act like an ass at times, but I certainly don't look like an ass...they have far more fur and a longer nose than I do.

"The guys and gals who get up every day and go and bust their hump on the farm, mine, oil field, factory, office, etc etc and pay huge portions of their income in taxes to the govt. are patriots."
I do not disagree...however, I work in an office now in the civilian world...so does my working in an office in the civilian world cancel out the 20+ years I spent in the military? Am I allowed to show my patriotism by displaying my retirement shadow box complete with US flag on my desk at my civilian job? Would you even consider me worthy to be a patriot?

"But they don't walk around beating on their chest going "Look what a good boy am I" do they?"
Actually, try again...I know plenty of arrogant individuals who do walk around beating on their chests going "Look what a good boy am I". They come in all shapes, sizes, and colors and they are extremely annoying...civilian, military, white, black, yellow, red, male, or female...they are out there.

"And if all you have to to offer up in defense of you views on the environment, (whatever they are) is how many years you have sucked off the taxpayers, pretty much says your environmental positions don't pass the giggle test."
As said earlier in this post, I am unsure as to what context this statement relating to the copied post is in.

Now, let me tell you a couple things:
1) There are two words that will irritate and piss me off. Both refer to parts of a female's anatomy, both end in the letter "t". I do not use them. I do not like them to be used around me. They are vile, debasing and disrespectful. And this is entirely my opinion, so I'm sure there are others out there that will try to change my opinion...it won't happen. Seeing or hearing these words is akin to me seeing red. I apologize for jumping the gun.

2) I believe the point of your original post was to complain about someone saying they were a patriot because they served in the military and then as a civilian at a government job and that no one should question their beliefs, conduct, or opinion because of this. If this is the case, then why all the other verbiage? And why so many generalizations?

3) And, FYI...I am female so sleeping in bubba's bunk sounds delightful.

4) I do not consider myself a "Lib" (liberal) or conservative. I am American.

towermonkey wrote: I would agree with all of that Rocdoc, but I would add it is patriotic to try and steer you country and fellow countrymen away from their path when you feel it is wrong or immoral.

Yes, we can agonize over such misguided missions and do our best to provide sound reason. As you are well aware, that often is a long uphill battle, more often lost than won. What comes to mind here is the words of Yoda, "try not, do"

And CB, nice thoughtful post.

I remember going to the veterans day parade back in a small town in Wisconsin. Not many of us gathered, but those of us who did met at 11:00 AM at the memorial park. I remember seeing a few WW1 vets who marched back in the late 70's, and many WW2 vets. I never even thought about questioning their patriotism! I was proud of them and their service to this great country. Now, I have a question for those who may not agree with me by asking; I have been to several Rockies baseball games, and during the national anthem, people don't remove their hats and talk while the National anthem is being played, does this bother anyone?

I throw nachos at them the entire game if I see them disrespecting the National Anthem that way. I'm pretty good at doing it without attracting any notice. Its pretty funny to see them looking around trying to figure out who's attacking them.

One time at work, the subject of the Colorado Native came up. One girl was being very snobbish saying that she was born in CO had lived all of her life here. I replied that I wasn't born in CO and that while she had made no effort on her own to be in CO, I had given up the life I had where I was born, left my family and friends and made a huge effort to come and make a new life for myself in CO, so I believed that she had no right to be so self-righteous about her "Native" status, which she had from no effort on her own. Funny thing was both of her parents had moved to CO shortly before she was born...