So it is pretty clear at this point that Al Quata won.

Nmysys wrote: Oh, you Liberals can state that you love America, but it isn't the America that we have had before, but the Utopia Liberal, Progressive America that you are too stupid to understand didn't come free. Men died to give you what you have taken for granted and want to change into a Communist entitlement country like all of the European countries that you emulate and haven't paid any attention to what is going on in.

I think that what's taken as "hatred of America", is, in fact, criticism of the policies and actions taken by our "leaders" - criticisms that our Founding Fathers and others throughout our history have encouraged. I myself have yet to see any liberals or conservatives on here who "hate" America - I see people who are passionate, outspoken, opinionated, frustrated with our government, feel helpless to fix our big problems, and disagree over the methods to do so...and that's all.

"As a matter of general principle, I believe there can be no doubt that criticism in time of war is essential to the maintenance of any kind of democratic government ... too many people desire to suppress criticism simply because they think that it will give some comfort to the enemy to know that there is such criticism. If that comfort makes the enemy feel better for a few moments, they are welcome to it as far as I am concerned, because the maintenance of the right of criticism in the long run will do the country maintaining it a great deal more good than it will do the enemy, and will prevent mistakes which might otherwise occur."
Senator Robert Taft, Dec 19, 1941

"Here in America we are descended in blood and in spirit from revolutionists and rebels--men and women who dare to dissent from accepted doctrine. As their heirs, we may never confuse honest dissent with disloyal subversion." --Dwight D. Eisenhower

"The people are the masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who would pervert it!"
Abraham Lincoln

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."
Theodore Roosevelt

Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.
Mark Twain

Loyalty to the country always. Loyalty to the government when it deserves it.
Mark Twain

I hope our wisdom will grow with our power, and teach us, that the less we use our power the greater it will be.
Thomas Jefferson

It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world.
Thomas Jefferson

The spirit of this country is totally adverse to a large military force.
Thomas Jefferson

War is an instrument entirely inefficient toward redressing wrong; and multiplies, instead of indemnifying losses.
Thomas Jefferson

The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive. It will often be exercised when wrong, but better so than not to be exercised at all.
Thomas Jefferson

Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear.
Thomas Jefferson

Lionshead2010 wrote: How about our Al Qaeda buddy this morning? He likely woke up to the sound of gunfire or a Predator flying over his village. Most of his children have never had ANY vaccinations and many have had or still have malaria and other maladies the US doctor's have to read about in books because they no longer exist in that "loser" nation-the US. As a devout Al Qaeda member he left school very early to study religion instead and has about a 4th grade education. He's going to yank his 8 year old son out of school any day now and he doesn't even want his daughter to attend at all.....so she can be just like her mom. Property. He's going to spend his day with many other simple illiterate men who also smell like goats and who are full of hate for things they don't understand but they are plotting ways to assassinate their provincial governor because he simply isn't radical enough for them so all in all it's a pleasant day.. By the way, He's in his early 40s and since the life expectancy there is 45 for men and 46 for women....he's in the "autumn" of his life....he has few teeth, many aches and pains...and is generally in a constant state of pissed off. He'd love a cup of tea, but the water he drinks every day smells strangely like sewage. What is beer and what is football? What is leisure?

So yes, if you call that "winning"...then Al Qaeda has certainly "won".

This describes the majority of innocent civilians who had nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks - I am not happy that their lives are so awful, nor do I think that us being at war with some of their brothers and sisters, and them being at war with us, improves any of our lives. We didn't go to war with Al Qaeda to free the women, or educate the children of Afghanistan - we reacted to an extremist group that had a plan - to draw us into an ill-conceived war in which we could never extract ourselves neatly, in hopes of bringing about our downfall economically because even they understood that they could never do so military to military. And rather than learn that lesson, we continue to bleed out: if we ask anything this anniversary, it should be "When will it stop?"

Questioning our continued presence, what we've really gotten out of being there, and justifications for continuing on course, is not expressing hatred or not showing support for those who have served and died; rather, our patriotic duty to question the actions and policies of our elected representatives so that we can push our representatives to chart the wisest course for our nation's well-being.

lionshead2010 wrote: "This describes the majority of innocent civilians who had nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks - I am not happy that their lives are so awful, nor do I think that us being at war with some of their brothers and sisters, and them being at war with us, improves any of our lives. We didn't go to war with Al Qaeda to free the women, or educate the children of Afghanistan - we reacted to an extremist group that had a plan - to draw us into an ill-conceived war in which we could never extract ourselves neatly, in hopes of bringing about our downfall economically because even they understood that they could never do so military to military. And rather than learn that lesson, we continue to bleed out: if we ask anything this anniversary, it should be "When will it stop?"

Questioning our continued presence, what we've really gotten out of being there, and justifications for continuing on course, is not expressing hatred or not showing support for those who have served and died; rather, our patriotic duty to question the actions and policies of our elected representatives so that we can push our representatives to chart the wisest course for our nation's well-being."

I have to agree with Archer that this is a nice speech. Well done. But back to the topic. Do you think Al Qaeda won? I suggest that they did not and used quality of life to illustrate my point. Thanks. Won? Not yet, but my opinion is that they are slowly beating us - we are sinking further and further in debt with no clear leadership of what to do to get out. Yes their quality of life is worse, but we don't have enough money to bring it up to our standards, and they are dragging us down to theirs. It's not evident yet, but look at the direction of debt reduction talks - cut funding to infrastructure and benefits to elderly, poor, and jobless.

We could go on and on about whether or not the war was ill conceived. The fact of the matter is we ARE at war right now. In Afghanistan we are fighting a counterinsurgency (COIN). One of the key tenets to success in COIN is the establishment of a legitimate government. Military might cannot establish legitimate governments. It can help set the conditions for successful governance in a war-ridden place like Afghaninstan...but in the end, the people of that country have to embrace their new government. I don't see that happening there any time soon so we have a decision to make. Do we stay until it does (think a decade or more) or do we get out now? This really is a job for the State Department. They are better equipped to help countries establish legitimate governments...but they will tell you they are too underfunded to get the job done in Afghanistan...and it would still take a decade. Nor do I see it happening either, and according to General Casey in the video excerpt below, they fully understand that it'll be close to another decade and the focus won't be militarily, (he called it "Stability operations") which to me means $$$.

Ironically, the point is moot. We can't afford to stay. Our Nation is broke. We are going to chop up the defense budget along with other budgets to try and make ends meet. We will be leaving soon whether the Afghans are ready or not...and the whole country will likely lapse back into the hell hole it was when we got there in 2001. I absolutely agree - we can't afford to stay, which was the point of my first post - bin Laden knew he could ruin us financially with several attacks that drew us in, and the bad policy of staying continues. We are in a catch-22 in that if we leave now, we know it will be held against us and create more ill-will toward our country; if we stay, we ruin ourselves trying to save them and neither of us comes out well. We can lament til the cows come home that we wish our leaders had had more foresight and found another more effective way to go after those responsible for 9/11 that wouldn't have gotten us into this mess, but hindsight only works for what was actually done, not what the outcome might have been if we'd done X. What I'd like to see now is a plan that gets the Afghani people more involved ASAP, and us out quickly.

My greatest fear as a former soldier is that we try to do the rest of the Afghan War economically. There is no such thing. So as I've been saying for months now....I don't really care if we are going to leave but if we do let's get everyone out quickly. The nightmare scenario to me is leaving a few troops there...underfunded, short on ammunition, equipment and repair parts...to try to hold the line. The economy of force approach won't work under these circumstances and those unfortunate to be left behind will end up like the Brits and Soviets before them in that country. We built permanent bases there, so I don't know why they're trying to fool us that we'll really ever be leaving. Again, the video in the link below seems to indicate to me that we're in for long-term, economic/infrastructure costs that will be never-ending.

Seriously, I don't care if we stay or go. If we stay, we have to be all in. But since we can't afford to be all in, then we must get all out. It's simple economics now. The President and Congress need the money being spent there to do other things. I just hope we do this smart or there will be more senseless loss of young life.

Agreed. On all counts.


http://fora.tv/2010/07/09/General_Casey ... More_Years
General Casey: Our 21st Century Army
The War on Terror: General Casey Foresees Ten More Years
July 9, 2010