So it is pretty clear at this point that Al Quata won.

poubelle wrote: Win? How can we win an immoral, illegal, unjustified "war"? A "war" based on lies is a war of aggression. Or perhaps you are referring to that amorphous "war on terror". Who or what is this so-called terror? 19 box cutter wielding Saudi's, a UAE, an Egyptian, with not an Iraqi in the bunch? Or perhaps it's a suicide bomber here, a car bomber there? How about an unmanned drone? Or maybe a bomber up on high spreading its love onto the nameless, faceless below? Maybe it's some guy in Norway? No way jose, he's white and xtian. Same with good ole Timmy McV. Nope, it's only terror if you are the one being terrorized. No?

We lost the moment we allowed ourselves to give up any of our Constitutionally protected rights; to allow ourselves to be manipulated by fear, divided by partisanship. You are fools and idiots if you believe otherwise.

So we lost WWII as soon as we interned our Japanese citizens?
Lost the Civil War as soon as Lincoln suspended Habeous Corpus?
Lost WWI as soon as we censored the papers?

America has a tradition of suspending civil rights when we go to war, but will the War on Terror ever end? Or will our missing civil rights come back slowly?

Personally I saw many civil rights destroyed with the War on Drugs and it does seem like as America moves along, more rights disappear.

If we even give any of our enemies a hint that they've won...then they have.

Becky wrote: The "War" machine is not bankrupting this country......The vote for "change" is.

We can test this statement.

Homeland Security consumes $43.2 billion annually.
Intelligence: $55 billion.
Defense: $671 billion

(Afghanistan and Iraq are about $100 billion).

Budget for Health & Human Services: $80 billion.

I'm all for free market, minimal government intervention, etc. The numbers alone refute your statement.

Iraq and Afghanistan ALONE cost 25% more than the entire HHS budget.

The war machine is bankrupting our country every bit as much as the so-called "vote for change."

To those of you who think we "won"....

If so, why was the country skittery as a bunch of cats in a room full of rocking chairs yesterday?

AspenValley wrote: To those of you who think we "won"....

If so, why was the country skittery as a bunch of cats in a room full of rocking chairs yesterday?

Imagine America now if we have been Christian and "the other cheek"? Would AQ have declared themselves the winner or would they have pressed further attacks?

I don't know, just was curious what people think. Spain had AQ bombing attacks on their train system, so a peace party won and they brought their troops home and they haven't had any more attacks.

bailey bud wrote:

Becky wrote: The "War" machine is not bankrupting this country......The vote for "change" is.

We can test this statement.

Homeland Security consumes $43.2 billion annually.
Intelligence: $55 billion.
Defense: $671 billion

(Afghanistan and Iraq are about $100 billion).

Budget for Health & Human Services: $80 billion.

I'm all for free market, minimal government intervention, etc. The numbers alone refute your statement.

Iraq and Afghanistan ALONE cost 25% more than the entire HHS budget.

The war machine is bankrupting our country every bit as much as the so-called "vote for change."

http://www.federalbudget.com/

Perhaps the Dept of Human Services has a bigger piece of the pie.

SS109 wrote:

AspenValley wrote: To those of you who think we "won"....

If so, why was the country skittery as a bunch of cats in a room full of rocking chairs yesterday?

Imagine America now if we have been Christian and "the other cheek"? Would AQ have declared themselves the winner or would they have pressed further attacks?

I don't know, just was curious what people think. Spain had AQ bombing attacks on their train system, so a peace party won and they brought their troops home and they haven't had any more attacks.

The desire for revenge runs deep in America.....it's how we were born, and it's the way we have always been. I don't think you can compare Spain to the USA......we have more responsibility in the world (yes, we took that responsibility on ourselves) and more "skin in the game". If America pulled back within it's borders, took on the mantle of peace and stood down it's armed forces.....chaos would be the best we could hope for in this world. We made ourselves this way, so now we need to use our strength responsibly. That's where I think we have gone off the track......It's so easy to think that what America puts her mind to doing in this world, we will accomplish. Viet Nam tought us otherwise, and Afghanistan may well become another painful lesson in our limitations.

Post-Afghanistan/Post Iraq America: Will it be like it was after Vietnam? An America very reluctant to commit forces overseas, a general military budget drawdown, a Ron Paul/LJ paradise?
Or will the "burn" heal after a few years and we get itchy to intervene? I never thought Pres. Obama would get involved in Libya.
And after the minimal casualties of the Gulf War I, did it make us too eager to jump again?

SS109 wrote: Post-Afghanistan/Post Iraq America: Will it be like it was after Vietnam? An America very reluctant to commit forces overseas, a general military budget drawdown, a Ron Paul/LJ paradise?
Or will the "burn" heal after a few years and we get itchy to intervene?

That depends upon how many Rambo & Chuck Norris type movies are made.

One thing we will have to prepare for in a post-Iraq/post-Afghanistan world are higher unemployment numbers. I don't have any numbers to support my theory right now...but I would say that a draw down of the DoD will put many military personnel, government workers and various contracts/contractors out of work. We can try to reorient some of these people to related jobs in the private sector but I doubt it would be a one-for-one exchange.

After we look at that first tier of people losing their jobs, then we next need to look at the implications this has on all the mom and pop type businesses that are making a living by feeding the folks above, fixing their cars, selling them washing machines and clothes, etc.

I'm not saying this is a reason to stop the cuts....I just think we need to be prepared for the reality of those unemployment numbers creeping well into the double digits as we gut the military machine. I know many of the young veterans coming home are already having trouble finding work...imagine what it will be like when the market is flooded with tens of thousands of additional people.

I wonder what and increase in unemployment numbers well into double digits does for the economic recovery? Looks like we WILL gut the DoD's budget so we can fund more socila programs. I will be interested to see the unintended consequences of this.