So it is pretty clear at this point that Al Quata won.

Becky -

Your figures include Social Security (an entitlement). I'm looking at discretionary spending.
(frankly - it's the entitlements that are making us broke - but you can't turn entitlements on a dime)

The budget generally leaves that out (in theory, Social Security is self-funding - although we know that's not really working very well).

There's almost nothing that could be done to the Social Security entitlement in the near term.

Choices we made (to fight) have run the federal budget up more than just about any other "discretionary" factor.

My point remains the same - Iraq and Afghanistan alone are well above the budgetary impact of Obamacare (or Obamajobs).

Obamacare will cost somewhere around $500 million, next year. That's a lot less than the $100 BILLION dollars/yr we spend on Iraq/Afghanistan.

Note: be happy to continue the discussion on a different thread...... No need to hijack the hysterics.....
(No - I don't think the terrorists won --- but I'm not sure I'd say America won, either --- I think the defense contractors won).

bailey bud wrote: (No - I don't think the terrorists won --- but I'm not sure I'd say America won, either --- I think the defense contractors won).

I find it interesting that those who have or had little to no actual skin in the game are quick to call it a loss.

lionshead2010 wrote: I find it interesting that those who have or had little to no actual skin in the game are quick to call it a loss.

What would you consider enough skin in the game to have a legitimate opinion? Being an American isn't enough?

archer wrote:

lionshead2010 wrote: I find it interesting that those who have or had little to no actual skin in the game are quick to call it a loss.

What would you consider enough skin in the game to have a legitimate opinion? Being an American isn't enough?

I would settle for the smell of cordite or the sound bullets make when they pass just over your head. I'm curious how many folks who are judging the war in this discussion have been in Iraq or Afghanistan lately. Or how many have actually even heard a shot fired in anger.

I don't want to get into the circular argument about who is more patriotic....I know what a patriot is....I just find it interesting that those with some real skin in the game have a different opinion.

lionshead2010 wrote: I don't want to get into the circular argument about who is more patriotic....

It's a tiresome argument... The idea that you either "can't be a patriot" or "don't know what patriotism is" unless you're in uniform, or a family member is in uniform, is total b.s.

LadyJazzer wrote:

lionshead2010 wrote: I don't want to get into the circular argument about who is more patriotic....

It's a tiresome argument... The idea that you either "can't be a patriot" or "don't know what patriotism is" unless you're in uniform, or a family member is in uniform, is total b.s.

Not total BS, I would think those who are willing to serve their country via numerous deployments, etc are probably more patriotic than those who don't even know the words to the Pledge of Allegiance. Not totally, people serve for a lot of reasons, and patriotism isn't necessary to serve, just more likely.

And the closest I have come to serving is dropping an ROTC course in college.

Oooo, well let's run the Patriotism flag up the flagpole and see who salutes.... [barf]

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel" -- Samuel Johnson (1775)

LadyJazzer wrote:

lionshead2010 wrote: I don't want to get into the circular argument about who is more patriotic....

It's a tiresome argument... The idea that you either "can't be a patriot" or "don't know what patriotism is" unless you're in uniform, or a family member is in uniform, is total b.s.

No, I'm not questioning anyone's patriotism...we've been down that bumpy road before...I'm just saying those who have served tend to have a different perspective.

As an example, how would you feel if I (as a man) gave you (or any woman) pointers on childbirth or menopause. Now I could argue that I've been to the best medical schools, read all the books and even seen all the medical movies about childbirth and menopause. But you know what, my perspective as a man is much different than yours as a woman. How can I possible fully understand either childbirth or menopause unless I've lived it. How credible would I be if I told you I totally understood your perspective? I would say not very credible.

It's the same for those who have served versus those who watched a YouTube clip or read a book about it. It's just not the same thing.

Timothy McVeigh was in the military. Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan was in the military. Were they patriots? According to your logic, they were more patriotic than anyone that hasn't been in the military. It certainly does sound like you are saying that people who joined the military are more patriotic than those who haven't.