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archer wrote: 18 pages and counting, all to try and justify people's desire to stop their government from helping the poor, the needy, the sick, and the elderly....and using the Bible to do it......I am in awe.
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The Viking wrote:
archer wrote: 18 pages and counting, all to try and justify people's desire to stop their government from helping the poor, the needy, the sick, and the elderly....and using the Bible to do it......I am in awe.
rofllol :roflYou actually believe the government helps people??? rofllol
:rofl The ENABLE laziness! Talk about totally brainwashed!! They have turned this nation into a welfare lazy nation. You guys will never get it! :bash
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The new covenant is more than the golden rule mittra - that is the second greatest commandment according to Jesus. The first was to love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul and all your mind. As far as clearly stating that everyone must give up their worldly possessions in order to be able to enter the kingdom, the passage does no such thing. It does clearly state that Jesus told a single man that this is what he must do, but it does not clearly state that it is what all are required to do. The absence of the commandments relating to worshiping God are noteworthy. Why do you think Jesus left them out when he was giving the list of the commandments that the man must follow? What is clear is that the man loved his money more than he loved God for he was unwilling to part with his property in order to be complete and able to enter the Kingdom of Heaven to be with his God for eternity. God also made Abraham make a choice between God and his first born son, but Abraham loved his God more than he loved his own son so God did not require Abraham to make that sacrifice. What might Jesus have said to the man if he had been as willing as Abraham to show his love for his Creator? Might his requirement have been removed as well? We will never know because the man in Matthew 19 didn't love his God more than he loved his property, which, as pointed out previously, is the point of the story. It also ties in nicely with John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. God so loved you that He was willing to send His Son, Abraham so loved God that he, too, was willing to sacrifice his son - the man in Matthew's Gospel didn't love God enough to sacrifice his property. The lesson is pretty clear, that those who love God above all else are willing to sacrifice anything, including themselves, to be with Him for all eternity.mittra303 wrote: And for the record, not that anyone asked, I think it is foolhardy to try to defend any particular scripture passage or to use it to make some salient point as for nearly every passage that says one thing, there is another passage that says the opposite. The passage Kate used (in it's entirety) clearly states that in order to get into Heaven, one must give up their worldly possessions and follow Christ. It's pretty simple. And the words came from Jesus himself (really, guys, they are directly attributed to him in the passage, don't try to say he didn't say it). Yet in other sections of the same scripture, he says there is a new covenant and that all of the old commandments are null and void in favor of simply following the golden rule, "love thy neighbor as thyself." Throughout his life and recorded conversations, Jesus is fairly clear that the only way to salvation and entering Heaven is to follow him.
Just so. And that, too, is codified in this particular example from the public life of Jesus, "There is only One who is Good." The rest of us are going to forever fall short because we suffer from the human condition.mittra303 wrote: Presumably, in today's world where he is no longer physically present to follow, simply following his example and living as he did would be an acceptable alternative. As someone who has rejected organized religion in favor of trying to make my presence on this mortal coil not suck, I have chosen to try and follow the examples of Jesus (who may very well possibly have just been an extraordinary man and not the literal Son of God). I try to help my fellow humans out. I try to not hold hatred and disdain in my heart towards others. I try to be charitable. I try to be understanding and supportive of those our society holds in contempt. I know I am not always successful in these endeavors, but that is part of the journey, right?
It is the same point I made earlier - the Creator so loves you that he has left you many paths back to Him. That is the reason that only God can judge whether or not someone is complete and will be admitted into the Kingdom (which Jesus could not have done unless He was Divine). There is not a single path, which makes the statement you made in the first paragraph, "The passage Kate used (in it's entirety) clearly states that in order to get into Heaven, one must give up their worldly possessions and follow Christ. It's pretty simple." incompatible with what you are saying here and also incompatible with the lesson Jesus was actually attempting to teach with the passage that Kate provided us with.mittra303 wrote: And just one last thought to ponder.... Who is to say that the Bible and Jesus were right and they're the only way? Jehovah's Witnesses believe only 144K people EVER will be allowed into Heaven. They're Christians. Are they right? Ask two Jews about Heaven and the Afterlife and you'll get three different answers. Are they right? Muslims actually record the story of Jesus and much of his works in the Koran, but believe Mohammad was the Messiah and Savior, not Jesus. Are they right? Mormons have the Book of John Smith that believes the missing book from the Bible came from aliens. Are they right? Did i get that right about the Mormons? Or was that Latter Day Saints? Buddhists believe the way to enlightenment is to repeat your journey through Earth as many times as is necessary to learn the lessons to enlightenment and oneness with the universe. Are they right? Am i making my point?
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If you truly think that this is what the discussion has been about, then all I can say is that you are missing the entire point. Not by a little, but by a lot.archer wrote: 18 pages and counting, all to try and justify people's desire to stop their government from helping the poor, the needy, the sick, and the elderly....and using the Bible to do it......I am in awe.
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Not true at all mittra - myself and others who profess their belief in Jesus as Divine have interpreted that passage to mean that Jesus saw into the soul of the man and saw that what he was lacking was a love of God that was greater than his love for the material possessions he had, and that as a general rule of thumb someone who does not love God more than anything else is lacking something essential that will not allow them to enter the Kingdom. That is why the commandments regarding God were not listed and why in order to complete himself the man had to be willing to give up what he loved more than God.mittra303 wrote: Methinks, PrintSmith, that Kate tried to make the point that the Bible and its passages are up for interpretation. You, and others that ascribe to your belief system, have interpreted that particular passage as being only intended for the man that approached Jesus and not as a general rule of thumb. You're welcome to your interpretation, but you should be aware not everyone would read it that way. There are, as you've noted, many paths, but who is to say they all must lead back to Him? Those many paths do not all necessarily lead to the same place. This is not necessarily a "Road Less Traveled By" scenario. Much to my wife's chagrin, I do not ascribe to the belief that I must "accept Jesus Christ as my personal savior" to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. I prefer to believe that my soul will be judged on my deeds and that which was in my heart. That by caring for my fellow humans, being a good steward of my environment and nature around me, I will have earned my place in Heaven.
I like your comment about the human condition, however. I suffer from the human condition and as a result fall short of my goal of always leading an exemplary life. Yet still I try.
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