Vote no on 4A

18 Sep 2013 22:19 #1 by KINCAIDSPRINGS
Vote no on 4A was created by KINCAIDSPRINGS
Elk Creek Fire is looking for a 50% raise this tax season. I haven't had a raise in 4 years. I have learned to live within my means, why cant they. We have ALL had flat budgets. Why should a spending problem internally become a funding problem externally.


If Elk Creek needs Capital Improvements, why didn't they go for a bond? At least then they could be held accountable.

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19 Sep 2013 13:57 #2 by ZenTree
Replied by ZenTree on topic Vote no on 4A
KINCAIDSPRINGS\n

Elk Creek Fire is looking for a 50% raise this tax season. I haven't had a raise in 4 years. I have learned to live within my means, why cant they. We have ALL had flat budgets. Why should a spending problem internally become a funding problem externally.


As I understand it, the problem is that while the cost of everything the fire department does for us keeps going up, property values and therefore the income the fire department receives, keeps going down.

We don’t have to approve more funding for our fire department, so long as we’re happy with less protection.

I think we’re debating the wrong issue: Instead of arguing about whether we should pay to keep the services we have, I think we should be discussing additional protection: more stations, more fire trucks and more fire fighters to man them. I don’t want my community to be the next Black Forest.

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19 Sep 2013 14:04 #3 by ZenTree
Replied by ZenTree on topic Vote no on 4A

KINCAIDSPRINGS wrote: If Elk Creek needs Capital Improvements, why didn't they go for a bond? At least then they could be held accountable.


Ok, I sure ain't no lawyer, but there is a law called “Tabor,” which would hold the fire department fully accountable for using the funds for their stated purpose.

I think if you’ll look into it, you’ll find you have nothing to worry about in that regard. But you need to do your own research. Don’t take my word for it.

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19 Sep 2013 16:07 #4 by ScienceChic
Replied by ScienceChic on topic Vote no on 4A
Welcome to My Mountain Town KincaidSprings!

And thank you for posting this poll and sharing your opinion, it is most appreciated.

While 2.5 is a 50% increase from the current 4.915 mill rate, it's still the lowest of all the area fire departments, yet they have a comparable or higher call volume rate of all area fire departments so those who live in the district are currently getting the best return on their investment than any other district around and will continue to get that even with a "raise". They also haven't had a "raise" in much longer than 4 years. In fact, their revenue is only projected to decrease thanks to continued declining home values, and due to decreases in what is paid by insurance companies and Medicare/Medicaid for ambulance runs and medical calls.

If you read the Flume article that was published, they did this calculation:

A home with an actual value of $300,000 would have an assessed value of $23,880 (7.96 percent of the actual value) and by multiplying $23,880 times the 4.915 mill rate (.004915), that translates to an annual property tax on that $300,000 home of $117.37 tied to the fire district.

A mill rate of 7.415 would increase the annual tax on such a home to $177.07, an increase of $59.70 a year. The $177.07 works out to $14.76 a month.

Paying $60 more a year is a whole lot less painful than paying $236 more per year to insurance companies when rates go up because the department loses their good ISO rating next year AND having a decrease in the level of service that the department can provide.

If anyone want to learn more, the department has posted their annual budgets, which are reviewed by an outside, independent source, and additional info not required to be made public on their website.

This mill levy is subject to TABOR law, which means it must be spent in the way it is intended and the voters approve, it does expire, and is meant for things which have been kicked down the road until it couldn't be ignored any further - trucks, personal protective equipment for firefighters (the majority of whom are volunteers, and some of whom have gotten hurt due to inadequate protection from old gear), building maintenance, and to replace one position out of the 2.5 that they've cut that if it stays unfilled will directly impact their ISO review next year.

Those are the facts. I encourage everyone to please review all of the documents, watch the videos and learn more about how the department operates, and what will happen if this mill levy is or is not passed. It's up to all of you to decide what level of service you are willing to accept to serve your family and home in an emergency.

For full disclosure, I proudly admit that I am one of the Friends of Elk Creek Fire group. Nothing above is opinion, but I'm happy to share that as well, though it has no bearing on the facts of this issue.

"Now, more than ever, the illusions of division threaten our very existence. We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another as if we were one single tribe.” -King T'Challa, Black Panther

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. ~Winston Churchill

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19 Sep 2013 16:28 #5 by Venturer
Replied by Venturer on topic Vote no on 4A
Don't buy it SC. Change the way volunteers and others are given outrageous pensions for 10 years of volunteering and you have bookoo bucks to cover all the things they need.

It is outrageous coercion the way they are doing this, either give us what we want or rating will be lost.

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19 Sep 2013 16:55 #6 by archer
Replied by archer on topic Vote no on 4A
I'm curious, I'm not in elk creek district, but what constitutes an outrageous pension? And why shouldn't volunteers who have given so much to the community for 10+ years receive a pension? They haven't received a salary. EFD has a pretty high tax rate, but they are worth every penny we pay them. No complaints from this long time resident, and yes, our insurance rates reflect the rating and reputation of our for dept.

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19 Sep 2013 17:22 #7 by ScienceChic
Replied by ScienceChic on topic Vote no on 4A
WindPeak, I ask sincerely: how do you know that they haven't? I know they've cut benefits for their firefighters, among many other things. I don't know if pensions are among the cuts, but I can ask.

There is no coercion - you get to vote and decide what level of service you wish. The Chief has already fully admitted that no matter what the outcome of the mill levy, their rating will go down - they've lost a full-time Training Officer and a full-time Fire Marshall that they plan to only replace with half-time each if the mill levy is passed, and not replace at all if it isn't. They can't do the fire prevention and mitigation community outreach that they used to, which is also a factor. Their 25 year old tankers will not pass the pump tests. Period. Under either scenario, their rating will be negatively impacted.

The important points are that:
● The ISO rating will be negatively impacted, the question is, by how much?

● The 10 year ISO rating is due next year - previous boards kicked this problem down the road because they knew they didn't have that deadline looming over their heads, nor did they face the budget cuts that the decline in housing tax revenue and ambulance reimbursements have caused in the last 3 years.

● Everyone's insurance will go up, the question is, will it be by a little because ECFPD's rating goes from a 5 to a 6 or 7, or will it be by a lot because it goes from a 5 to an 8B like Inter-Canyon's rating or a 10? If it goes to 8B, rates will be significantly higher than they would at a 6 or 7. Even for insurance companies that don't go strictly by ISO ratings, but use their own systems to factor risk - they absolutely use the same reasons as ISO - distance to fire station from your home, capabilities of the responding fire department (equipment, personnel), amount of mitigation around the home, etc.

This mill levy will allow the department to maintain its current level of service. It's up to you if you think that's good enough, but make sure you know everything that they've done to save money up to this point before making assumptions. It's all there in the budgets and discussed in their board meetings.

"Now, more than ever, the illusions of division threaten our very existence. We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another as if we were one single tribe.” -King T'Challa, Black Panther

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. ~Winston Churchill

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19 Sep 2013 19:32 #8 by Venturer
Replied by Venturer on topic Vote no on 4A
Thank you for your response SC. You talk about assumptions. Do you know if they have cut pensions? Show me. I don't know one fire department that has. So many have kicked the can down the road and expect that they would get more money from increased tax revenue.

Pensions are something that all fire departments need to take a serious look at. They cannot keep promising them to firefighters and expect tax payers to pay these outrageous amounts for the amount of time that the f.f. contribute in volunteer hours. It can not be sustained as it is. And these continued increases in the name of equipment because so much is being allocated to pensions has to stop. This isn't just Elk Creek it is the majority of fire departments. Every fire department needs to reassess or they will go the way of bankruptcy. Downturns in the economy give an opportunity for every fire dept. to reassess, face reality and start living w/i their means.

Archer I am thankful that you have the means to pay Evergreen for their services, but not everyone can.

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19 Sep 2013 19:55 #9 by archer
Replied by archer on topic Vote no on 4A
I don't understand your point, as a retiree I am very careful about what I support with my money...what I spend in taxes for the fire department lowers my home owners insurance cost. As SC pointed out....is it not worth paying an extra $100/year on your fire dept to save $200/year on insurance? (Numbers are for example only, SC's numbers are probably more accurate)

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19 Sep 2013 23:34 #10 by KINCAIDSPRINGS
Replied by KINCAIDSPRINGS on topic Vote no on 4A
I would like to further point out that voting yes only "insures" one thing. That you will pay more in taxes. Ti does NOTHING to secure your insurance rate. That can go up as well and now you are paying more more and more! So if I am going to risk it, I guess i will risk it on the insurance premium. At least I have some control over that.

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