KINCAIDSPRINGS wrote: I would like to further point out that voting yes only "insures" one thing. That you will pay more in taxes. Ti does NOTHING to secure your insurance rate. That can go up as well and now you are paying more more and more! So if I am going to risk it, I guess i will risk it on the insurance premium. At least I have some control over that.
You were asked some pertinent questions above, by some very knowledgeable posters, yet you didn't address any of their inquires to you.
More than that, there were various view points reflected on this thread, and you've ignore getting into the conversation with them.
You started this thread to discuss 4a, you've posed questions yet you just go on... not really discussing the issue you seemed so intent on discussing.
You seemed to have convinced yourself that your facts are correct (and they may be) but you've done nothing to support your position. You may as well go on, there's nothing left to say.
Does the chief make more than $50k a year with benefits? Do people on the crews make more than those they are serving?
If so, then we can use that money first.
I call BS on the insurance increases. If that was the case, it would imply that insurance companies could make more money by banding together and starting private fire houses in places like CO so that they can save money. This is a threat like the credit rating. Using fear of private fees to get you to pay even more to the govt. to avoid them. The math does not work, someone is harvesting money if in fact insurance rates go down more than taxes go up.
Also, what happened to paying your own way? The insurance companies charge you based on the risk and the competition they have. The govt will charge you based on your homes value. If you own a nice home in a practical place (well protected from fire), you could pay more than someone who built in a risky location. That makes about as much sense as asking your neighbor to pay for your kid's education so you still have enough money to go on vacation.
WindPeak wrote: Pensions are something that all fire departments need to take a serious look at. They cannot keep promising them to firefighters and expect tax payers to pay these outrageous amounts for the amount of time that the f.f. contribute in volunteer hours. It can not be sustained as it is. And these continued increases in the name of equipment because so much is being allocated to pensions has to stop. This isn't just Elk Creek it is the majority of fire departments. Every fire department needs to reassess or they will go the way of bankruptcy. Downturns in the economy give an opportunity for every fire dept. to reassess, face reality and start living w/i their means.
OMG.......... Sir, I am so sorry, but I believe you have the fire department confused with Congress or something.
Here are the facts: If you go through training and become a volunteer firefighter, once you complete your probationary period and become a full member (1-year), you have to serve 10-years to be eligible to receive one of those "outrageous" pensions.
So that means that after 11-years of working and risking your life for others, for free, you collect an outrageous pension of $100 per month! A whole hundred bucks! Wow! Makes me want to quit the day job and sign right up.
And if you don't believe me, call the fire department or their pension board.
A hundred dollars? Man, that insures these firefighters will all be able to afford the premium brand cat food when they get old (cause ya sure couldn't buy much else).
WindPeak wrote: Pensions are something that all fire departments need to take a serious look at. They cannot keep promising them to firefighters and expect tax payers to pay these outrageous amounts for the amount of time that the f.f. contribute in volunteer hours. It can not be sustained as it is. And these continued increases in the name of equipment because so much is being allocated to pensions has to stop. This isn't just Elk Creek it is the majority of fire departments. Every fire department needs to reassess or they will go the way of bankruptcy. Downturns in the economy give an opportunity for every fire dept. to reassess, face reality and start living w/i their means.
OMG.......... Sir, I am so sorry, but I believe you have the fire department confused with Congress or something.
Here are the facts: If you go through training and become a volunteer firefighter, once you complete your probationary period and become a full member (1-year), you have to serve 10-years to be eligible to receive one of those "outrageous" pensions.
So that means that after 11-years of working and risking your life for others, for free, you collect an outrageous pension of $100 per month! A whole hundred bucks! Wow! Makes me want to quit the day job and sign right up.
And if you don't believe me, call the fire department or their pension board.
A hundred dollars? Man, that insures these firefighters will all be able to afford the premium brand cat food when they get old (cause ya sure couldn't buy much else).
OMG some people are clueless. The firefighters also receive other benefits. Add them all up and then multiply by the number who are using those benefits and you will see where the majority of money in the fire department is going to.
I don't have the figures for Elk Creek at the moment, we looked at them when the person whose name I forget was claiming disability while working for Elk Creek fire.
Reassess all the benefits and you have more than enough funds. None of the f.d. can continue to expect to have increased tax revenues and need to reassess. Elk Creek is now in the throws of having to do just that. Maybe they will get the message when residents vote no.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volunteer_fire_department
In the United States, the Department of Labor classifies volunteer firefighters as firefighters that receive no compensation or nominal fees up to 20% of the compensation a full-time firefighter would receive in the same capacity.[2] The DOL allows volunteer firefighters to receive benefits such as worker's compensation, health insurance, life insurance, disability insurance, pension plans, length of service awards, and property tax relief. DOL defined volunteer firefighters may be paid nominal fees on a per call basis, per shift basis, or various service requirements, but may not be compensated based on productivity such as with an hourly wage.
ScienceChick....great explanation of the Fire Ratings. My name is Jennifer Eleniewski, owner and agent with Creekside Insurance in Conifer, We are an independent agency so we sell for many companies. Most if not all companies use this fire rating as a rating factor in your home insurance rates. Other factors include your claims loss history, your financial rating, age of your home, etc. Some companies use the fire rating and then also use Corelogic Analytics which gives your home a fire score based on distance to primary responding fire station, distance to water or fire truck capability for water, but it also includes slope of your land, proximity to forested area, vegetation or fuel present in your area, etc. No matter what, the quality of our fire dept's equipment, training, paid vs volunteer staff, water cabability and accessibility will all still play into your insurance rates.
Yes, insurance rates are already going up and that has much to do with claim loss history for the industry. There have been record claims payouts in the past few years and believe it or not most insurance companies are paying out more than they bring in for property insurance. They have been able to offset that with their other lines like auto, etc and with reserves but they cannot continue the trend. If we also lose fire ratings, this will only compound the problem with high insurance rates. The figures of 20% increase for going from a PC 5 to an 8B and 50% for a PC 10 are based on clients with good credit and good claims history. Add problems in those areas and it could become cost prohibitive up here for some.
Feel free to verify what I am saying with your own insurance agent. Just make sure they are an agent who fully understands our foothills area. I see time and time again agents down the hill who think we have widespread hydrants up here and every home is within 5 miles of a station. Not true. Cisturns are also not recognized by ISO as hydrants.
Also, here is a link to the company that many insurance carriers use to help them rate homeowners insurance.
WindPeak wrote: Pensions are something that all fire departments need to take a serious look at. They cannot keep promising them to firefighters and expect tax payers to pay these outrageous amounts for the amount of time that the f.f. contribute in volunteer hours. It can not be sustained as it is. And these continued increases in the name of equipment because so much is being allocated to pensions has to stop. This isn't just Elk Creek it is the majority of fire departments. Every fire department needs to reassess or they will go the way of bankruptcy. Downturns in the economy give an opportunity for every fire dept. to reassess, face reality and start living w/i their means.
OMG.......... Sir, I am so sorry, but I believe you have the fire department confused with Congress or something.
Here are the facts: If you go through training and become a volunteer firefighter, once you complete your probationary period and become a full member (1-year), you have to serve 10-years to be eligible to receive one of those "outrageous" pensions.
So that means that after 11-years of working and risking your life for others, for free, you collect an outrageous pension of $100 per month! A whole hundred bucks! Wow! Makes me want to quit the day job and sign right up.
And if you don't believe me, call the fire department or their pension board.
A hundred dollars? Man, that insures these firefighters will all be able to afford the premium brand cat food when they get old (cause ya sure couldn't buy much else).
OMG some people are clueless. The firefighters also receive other benefits. Add them all up and then multiply by the number who are using those benefits and you will see where the majority of money in the fire department is going to.
I don't have the figures for Elk Creek at the moment, we looked at them when the person whose name I forget was claiming disability while working for Elk Creek fire.
Reassess all the benefits and you have more than enough funds. None of the f.d. can continue to expect to have increased tax revenues and need to reassess. Elk Creek is now in the throws of having to do just that. Maybe they will get the message when residents vote no.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volunteer_fire_department
In the United States, the Department of Labor classifies volunteer firefighters as firefighters that receive no compensation or nominal fees up to 20% of the compensation a full-time firefighter would receive in the same capacity.[2] The DOL allows volunteer firefighters to receive benefits such as worker's compensation, health insurance, life insurance, disability insurance, pension plans, length of service awards, and property tax relief. DOL defined volunteer firefighters may be paid nominal fees on a per call basis, per shift basis, or various service requirements, but may not be compensated based on productivity such as with an hourly wage.
That's ok. I've been called worse than "clueless."
I would ask the respondent to please READ my post (you even quoted it in your reply).
I said "If you go through training and become a VOLUNTEER firefighter, once you complete your probationary period and become a full member (1-year), you have to serve 10-years to be eligible to receive one of those "outrageous" $100 a month pensions."
Volunteer firefighters don't get any "other benefits." So if as the writer advises, you "Add them all up and then multiply by the number who are using those benefits and you will," still come up with ZERO.
I'm sorry. I love a good, honest discussion, even if my position proves to be wrong. Sometimes I need someone to point out the flaws in my argument, but before you start calling people names, at least actually READ what the other person has said.
Oh......... I thought I'd stop in and see if I could learn more about the 4A mill levy increase, and I see that we're having the same conversation here as on PineCam.
I posted a couple of thoughts there, and I'll share them with this group:
"I'm trying to get up to speed on this 4A issue.
I did some on line research to learn about Elk Creek Fire Department, and I guess, as Kincaidsprings said, "They will pretty much do what they want. They have a history of doing just that." A quick Google search netted a ton of news stories about those folks, like this one:
"Dolan, who has been linked to several scandals during his 13 years with the department, currently is under investigation by a state agency for allegations that he has been receiving disability payments based on a fraudulent claim."
There are all kinds of stories about problems at that department, but they all seem to be from a few years back. The more current stuff is pretty mundane.
Creek wrote:
"ForestFellow....Our current Chief and Fire Board were not affiliated with the past issues of the department. Chief Dolan was convicted of fraud. I hope folks don't judge the current administration on the illegal acts of those who were with the organization previously. Things have definitely changed for the better."
"Yes, I am beginning to understand that.
Reading old newspaper reports, and watching Elk Creek Board Meetings on MyMountainTown, it sounds like when Dolan got caught and had to leave, the department also got rid of several of his cronies.
Maybe some of these negative comments are coming from folks who have an ax to grind, and really could care less if 4A is the right thing to do for the community or not? I sure hope that's not the case. It would be terrible if those people placed their own petty grievances ahead of the good of the community."
This is a group that is in favor of the mill levy increase and they have lots of information on their page. I found their "Frequently Asked Questions" post very informative.
If you want to hear all sides of the debate, this might be worth your time.
