I posted the scientific evidence in my first reply that you said was too much to read. Take some time and check it out.
"Now, more than ever, the illusions of division threaten our very existence. We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another as if we were one single tribe.” -King T'Challa, Black Panther
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. ~Winston Churchill
Science Chic wrote: What I was going to say is that there are those who are gay and say that they feel that it was never a choice for them - they were born that way. So that seems like it would be genetics overriding environment, but that those who say that cannot objectively describe what in their environment may or may not have contributed to them being gay.
Two things here and I know this will tick off some people. Saying that they felt it was never a choice and that they were born that way takes away all the responsibility for thier choices and actions. It makes things easier for them to accept.
Second, Of course most will not be able to point out exactly the point in their life or the event where they dicided they were gay. It could have been from years of verbal abuse from a mother or years of watching a father abuse thier mother, and deciding they never wanted to be like that. Or years of just a mother raising them to just be in touch with their more feminine and gentler side which led them to search for a stronger person to take care of them when they left the house which then they looked to another man for companionship.. Or they met other men who were also raised in a more feminine household and bonded with them.
I think childhood and experiences then leads you down the path of gay or straight. Nothing to do with genes, and there is still no proof. Like I said before, I don't judge anyone who is gay. I have many friends who are gay. I just believe it was a choice.
Science Chic wrote: I posted the scientific evidence in my first reply that you said was too much to read. Take some time and check it out.
But you said there was not specific genetic evidence. Just a bunch of genes that could maybe add up to something different that could possibly if the environment led them a certain dierction could have a chance of somehow allowing a person to maybe decide he or she was gay. Does that about sum it up?
Viking, I cannot believe that it is a conscious choice. By the time we are 5 years of age, we have made many irrevocable, unavoidable, compelling choices which determine who we are and cannot be changed this side of the grave.
Viking. I have studied genetics with a passion for about 4 decades. It is quite an interesting hobby. Taking animal studies and breeding experiments we can infer quite a bit about what is iniherited in humans. It is very scary.
Science Chic wrote: I posted the scientific evidence in my first reply that you said was too much to read. Take some time and check it out.
But you said there was not specific genetic evidence. Just a bunch of genes that could maybe add up to something different that could possibly if the environment led them a certain dierction could have a chance of somehow allowing a person to maybe decide he or she was gay. Does that about sum it up?
I said it wasn't narrowed down to an identified set of genes. There are chromosomal regions that absolutely, with sufficient statistical probability, correlate with homosexuality - and they are each thousands of base pairs long containing hundreds or thousands of genes - it takes time to isolate the specific ones of interest. This is the first step in identifying genes of interest - you find a big region, then narrow down specific candidates on each, then see if specific genes sort with specific behaviors, and determine what those gene candidates do - if they are going to affect behavior then you'd expect that they'd be expressed in the brain (many gene products are tissue specific, meaning the protein they code for is produced in only one type of tissue), and then you'd need to determine if they can affect behavior somehow - are those protein products participants in memory pathways, pain pathways, sensory pathways, etc. If you knock out those genes in mice, does it correlate with a significant reduction in homosexual behaviors (that'd be a difficult experiment to do, for many reasons)? Just because the genes haven't been specifically identified, doesn't mean that there isn't evidence for genetic influence.
Saying that homosexuality is a choice only opens up those who say they are to the notion that they can choose differently and that they are wrong to choose as they have. As many say it is not a choice, who are we to disregard how they feel since we aren't in their shoes? It makes no sense to me that so many would consciously choose a lifestyle that opens them to contemptible and demeaning treatment by those who do not try to understand. If it is a behavior that is chosen, why has it persisted throughout our history despite efforts against it, and why does it exist in many other species in the animal kingdom, if it isn't there for survivability and adaptability, meaning that it must be coded for, and carried throughout the history of, our genome?
"Now, more than ever, the illusions of division threaten our very existence. We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another as if we were one single tribe.” -King T'Challa, Black Panther
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. ~Winston Churchill
major bean wrote: Viking. I have studied genetics with a passion for about 4 decades. It is quite an interesting hobby. Taking animal studies and breeding experiments we can infer quite a bit about what is iniherited in humans. It is very scary.
So if there is a generous gene, then we should single that out, find those kids, and raise them to be Republicans so they will give more away to charities and make the world a better place. And we can also make sure those with the generous gene get adopted by wealthy people so they have more to give later in life. That would solve world hunger!
The operative word here is "consciously". Do we (men) "consciously" choose to lust after women? I think not. That is ludicrous.
There are many types of choices and not all choices have to be conscious.